Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire
  • Mood: ecstatic
  • Music: The crows arguing outside my window.

ONCE BROKEN FAITH open thread!

To celebrate the release of Once Broken Faith, here. Have an open thread to discuss the book. Judging by the comments I'm seeing, some of you have had time, and I'd really, really rather book discussion (sometimes including spoilers) didn't crop up on other posts.

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS.

Seriously. If anyone comments here at all, THERE WILL BE SPOILERS. So please don't read and then yell at me because you encountered spoilers. You were warned. (I will not reply to every comment; I call partial comment amnesty. But I may well join some of the discussion, or answer questions or whatnot.) I will be DELETING all comments containing spoilers which have been left on other posts. No one gets to spoil people here without a label.

You can also start a discussion at my website forums, with less need to be concerned that I will see everything you say! In case you wanted, you know, discussion free of authorial influence, since I always wind up getting involved in these things.

Have fun, and try not to bleed on the carpet.
Tags: discussion post, once broken faith, toby daye
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  • 154 comments

I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

beccacivi

September 9 2016, 14:24:11 UTC 10 months ago

Truly, this book was amazing!

I was thoroughly engrossed for the entire novel and would have finished sooner if I didn't have to eat, sleep, and most frustratingly of all work. >:(

Any who, Raj's crush on Chelsea is adorable! But I wonder what happened to Helen.

I love the family that Toby has made for herself. Each character is unique and important in their own right. I love that this book gave us a peek at characters that we haven't seen in a while. I was surprised about Jessica not being capable of being in the same room as Toby. not only was that news to us, but incredibly sad, and might explain why we haven't heard from the Browns in a while.

Tybalt calling the house "Home" nearly killed me. (Though him nearly being killed almost made me throw my book at the wall.)

I know it wasn't mean to be funny, but when Toby thought "This is gonna suck" just before hitting the ground I did laugh a bit.

I wonder when the Selkies' time will officially be up, and whether that is when the Luidaeg is going to call in Toby's debt that she acquired in this book (for the flame to save Tybalt).

And she racking them up as she goes isn't she? She now owes the Luidaeg and the Night Haunts, and probably someone else that I'm forgetting.

And WTF did Eira mean when she said that Toby had set things in motion? Was it filling a Firstborn? Was it finding out that her Mother was Firstborn? Bringing the Sea Witch out of hiding? That whole goal post to goalpost thing had my internal wheels spinning.

Is it just me or is the timing of the Arden novella off? If we open on June 5, Toby had to wait a week before conclave began, and then the conclave lasted at least two days if not three so how is it the 10th when Arden is debating weather she should give Nolan the cure? Also, if she was 12 during the earthquake on 1906 and 14 and Nolan was shot in 1934/6, Arden would be in her early 40s when he was shot, not before she turned 30 as she said in the novella. But I still love new perspectives!

This is a fantastic series that I read at least twice a year and can't get enough of.

What a great installment! I can't wait for the The Brightest Fell. (Though what a friggen ominous title!...no good comes of such a title!)

Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

anne_d

September 10 2016, 02:47:55 UTC 10 months ago

I've been wondering if the Luidaeg needs Toby's hope chest ability. Perhaps the Selkies have to be turned fully mortal again.

RE: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

beccacivi

September 10 2016, 14:34:35 UTC 10 months ago

Maybe she can somehow makr them Roan again. That's why they were worried about kids who didn't get a skin. There would be no more skins to hand down.

Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

anne_d

September 10 2016, 17:06:36 UTC 10 months ago

Good point. Toby might be able to tilt them either way, like she can for changelings. But would the Luiseag want to offer the choice of Faerie to the people who murdered her children?

Another year? Gaaaahhh!

RE: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

jenfullmoon

September 10 2016, 17:15:27 UTC 10 months ago

The people who murdered her children are dead. These are the descendants of the people who did. Heck, they're the descendants of the people who found out their parents murdered a bunch of Roane, killed their own parents, and brought the skins back as an apology to her.

Her relationship with them is a giant It's Complicated, don't get me wrong, but I think at this point she seems to have affection for the folks, enough to hang out with them voluntarily and anonymously.

Re: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

anne_d

September 10 2016, 17:17:42 UTC 10 months ago

Good point. Of course, complicated is the Luiseag's middle name, so who knows what she'll do in the end.

RE: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

M Reed

September 11 2016, 01:24:46 UTC 10 months ago

Besides which -- who says that the Selkies would survive? To be more precise -- what if the souls of the Roane *overwrote* the souls of the Sellkies. Yes, obviously this isn't what the Selkies think is going to happen

Remember, Luideag is, quite literally, both a monster and very inhuman. And as far as Toby refusing to help... Well, Toby is in debt to the Luideag far, far more than she ever was to Evening, and the Luideag hasn't cashed in any of that debt so far.

On a meta level: Good things rarely happen to Toby -- it seems beyond unlikely that whatever the Luideag has planned for Toby is going to be pleasant for her.

RE: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

beccacivi

September 12 2016, 12:13:57 UTC 10 months ago

I share your feeling that the change that Toby will most likely have to make to the Selkies will in effect, "resurrect" the skin, thus overwriting to mortal who is wearing it at the time.

As of right now, Toby seems willing to go along with whatever the Luidaeg has planned (she always calls her before she has to go out of town because she knows that the deadline is past due). I'm not sure how she'll react if she is essentially trading one life for another.

And the Luidaeg was indebted to Toby in The Winter Long after Toby brought her back from the dead, which is in part what confused me about the flame that Toby had to incur a debt for. But Toby still thanked the Luidaeg after awakening Tybalt, Quentin, and Walter, and the Luidaeg said that she would have to so...I don't know.

RE: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

M Reed

September 12 2016, 13:43:44 UTC 10 months ago

Arguably, the Luideag saved Toby's life at least twice (although, given the revelations at the end of the book, it *might* be that she only dramatically shortened her recuperation time), so... In addition to this, Toby claimed the Luideag as her protector / guardian / patron multiple times in The Winter Long -- something similar, but far, far, far less explicit, is what got her into trouble with Evening *in the first place*.

Luideag *likes* Toby, but if there is something she very desperately wants... Well, she *is* a monster. :(

RE: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

jenfullmoon

September 12 2016, 17:32:52 UTC 10 months ago

I've lost track of all of their indebtedness, but I think the bottom line is that those two like/love each other enough to save each other's bacon/do what the other wants anyway.

RE: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

bree_ramsey314

September 12 2016, 18:46:19 UTC 10 months ago

I'm pretty sure any debt Toby owed the Luidaeg was discharged by the whole bringing her back from the dead bit in The Winter Long.

RE: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

jenfullmoon

September 12 2016, 20:43:32 UTC 10 months ago

True, but it seems implied after this book that she's adding to the list again.

I think Toby should get freebies forever at this point, but the Luidaeg isn't allowed to give freebies so much, apparently.

RE: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

bree_ramsey314

September 13 2016, 01:45:32 UTC 10 months ago

You have a very valid point about the Luidaeg's lack of choice, and it's one of the things that makes her such a sympathetic (if frightening) character. At the same time, she does have a lot of leeway in what price she demands, and often that price is really the best thing for the individual in question. That was certainly the case with Quentin, and I think the same is true in Arden's case.

But, let's look at the relationship between Toby and the Luidaeg. Toby trusts the Luidaeg, and I believe that will be enough. She'll do what's asked of her, because the Luidaeg will tell her it has to be that way. Personally I don't believe there's some dire fate awaiting the Selkies, the Luidaeg has just let them think that because it insured they never forgot the past.

Re: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

jenfullmoon

September 13 2016, 04:48:08 UTC 10 months ago

I think the only thing dire for the selkies is that not everyone is going to get transformed into Roane (or whatever), and poor drunk Liz will have to deal with the objections to that from whoever's left behind.

Back to the Luidaeg...I have been stuck working public service at my job (not retail, but think like DMV) for the last four years (I have only recently been finally released from doing so and I'm still afraid they will change their mind and take it back because we had someone quit) and it's been a nightmare. One of the major reasons why it's a nightmare is because except for one exception, I'm categorically not allowed to say no to anyone. If I have to say no to something because it's against the rules, the customers make my life hell. I pretty much have to do anything to please or else someone will start calling every manager in the building to complain about me. Again. And oh holy god, do I know the rage I go about with because I can't stop people from doing what they want to me or demanding things of me I am not okay with giving. It drains me dry and I am giving from a cup of empty. I can't even imagine feeling like that for millennia. Everyone in Faerie is just lucky that the Luidaeg hasn't massacred everyone from the stress. Titania is the WORST.

I started wondering about the prices she charges. She was nice to Quentin and Arden in that (more or less), or at least that was stuff they could live with. Who knows what she asks other people, especially ones she doesn't like like say, the former imposter queen. Actually until this book I was wondering if her prices were something...I want to say "set by Titania," but that's not exactly what I mean. More like, not 100% up to her discretion/choice in what she asked. I guess not?

RE: Re: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

bree_ramsey314

September 13 2016, 06:51:56 UTC 10 months ago

I think you may be right about the Selkies. We've already seen that there aren't enough skins to go around, so if the ultimate goal is to use Toby to somehow bring the Roane back, there's going to be a lot of unhappy Selkies. Make that devastated; under the current system, someone who was passed over still has the slim hope that another skin will become available, but that will end if the Roane are restored.

I like your analogy to the Luidaeg, cursed to forever serve a public that demonizes her. I'm pretty sure that would put me in a mood to eviscerate people after a day. Faerie is lucky, though, ironically, that may be because of Titania. The Luidaeg can't harm anyone claimed by her, so she'd only be able to massacre those claimed by Maeve and Oberon.

I believe her prices are discretionary; they have to cost the individual something, but how onerous that may be is up to her. Take Quentin, for instance. He got two favors from her, the first being his passage into Blind Michael's lands. The price for that was he had to come out with Toby, or not at all. She knew Quentin wouldn't have left Toby anyway, but it was still a price with very dire potential. The second was saving Katie; "There are costs and choices to be made - one choice, actually, but it's yours alone, and making it pays my fee." Quentin was the only one who could make the choice for Katie. Ultimately, as Toby said, the cost was Quentin's heart, but that was going to be broken no matter which choice was made. The Luidaeg couldn't spare him that, no matter how much she might have wanted to, but in making that her price she made certain Quentin would stay away, and Katie would remain free.

I think Arden actually earned some grudging respect from the Luidaeg. "You did something I wanted you to do, and you didn't whine nearly as much as I expected." That's practically a pat on the head and a cookie. And, as I said, I think this 'price' will be good for Arden, because she'll eventually come to the startling realization that she can be a good queen. In fact she's just the kind of ruler Faerie needs, someone to drag it, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century. I'm betting Cassandra will help with that.

Re: Re: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

jenfullmoon

September 13 2016, 19:38:24 UTC 10 months ago

Very good point on the pricing. Quentin was already going to have to pay enough as is in that case.

Hah, yes, "pat on the head and a cookie" is exactly how to sum that experience up with Arden. That's a downright "SHE LIKES YOU!" from the Luidaeg. Helped that Arden knew the score from Marianne and wasn't going into it grudge-y about the Luidaeg brewing the sleeping potion, and that overall I think Arden kinda knows that running isn't an option any more anyway.

I do hope Arden and the Luidaeg see each other within a hundred years and that the Luidaeg just meant "don't ask me anything like this again for a hundred years." That would hamper plot...

I think Arden will be fine, it seems pretty clear that she needs backup in order to feel good about this and right now she mostly feels like the only backup she has are Madden and Nolan. Hopefully she'll acquire more in the future.

I just came out of a session with my therapist bringing up this topic of service and rage, hah.

RE: Re: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

Gemma Mason

September 14 2016, 06:10:41 UTC 10 months ago

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing Arden coming into her own and slowly building her household, in future books. It's a tough job, but the novella showed Arden developing the right instincts about finding and nurturing good people.

RE: Re: Re: Re: I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR?!

bree_ramsey314

September 14 2016, 16:14:20 UTC 10 months ago

She really had good instincts all along. Hiding was the right move at the start; lay low, and when the time was right start carefully building support. Nolan ruined that when he brashly went off on his own, and in the end all he succeeded in doing was saddling her with a completely helpless charge. The False Queen was very clever there; if she had killed Nolan that would have probably just pissed Arden off and left her with nothing to lose.