A RED-ROSE CHAIN open thread!

I thought the same!

I was also thinking that, but there has to be more to it as well, or else why wouldn't she have revealed herself at the end of Chimes at Midnight?

That was my thought too. Once Arden took the throne there was no need to maintain such a ruse, and every reason to drop it. Knowing that her beloved nanny was alive, well and there by her side would have done wonders for her self-confidence. No, I think whatever is up with Marcia -- if indeed there is something up with her, and we're not just 'reading' too much into her behavior -- is something else.

Honestly I'm leaning more towards it being nothing. Lily's court wasn't like any other, and she wasn't like any other noble. She treated the people of her demesne like her children, not her subjects, so Marcia being off balance around Arden could have been a natural reaction. Other than Tybalt, I doubt she'd had much contact with other nobles, and Tybalt certainly isn't typical either.

The one thing that keeps me wondering is your last point. Why wasn't Marcia knocked out? There's only one explanation I can come up with. Toby was able to beat Evening because she resisted her attempts to control her, and because Evening couldn't harm her. At the time I read The Winter Long, I assumed this applied only to Amandine and her children, because the Luidaeg said she couldn't hurt Amy either, and the implication I got from the rest was that Oberon imposed this restriction to protect the dochas sidhe, but maybe I was wrong, maybe it goes further. If that's the case, then the reason for leaving Marcia standing becomes clear; she had to be certain Toby had some help so she could get everyone out of the water before they drowned.

Marcia's quarter-blood, but her fae parentage has never been mentioned.
So if August had a changeling child and Marcia (March?) is a granddaughter? I don't think Toby's ever mentioned smelling Marcia's magic. Or maybe her fae side is from another one of Oberon's lines.

She has NEVER mentioned the scent of Marcia's magic, her heritage, ZIP. This makes me extremely suspicious, curious, etc. Esp, on top of everything else Marcia has done recently.

There is something big up with Marcia. I don't know what it is yet, but we have had so many little things mentioned, that I refuse to believe that Seanan doesn't have a big reveal planned later.

An Artificial Night:
- Despite being 1/4 fae, she is able to tell that May isn't Toby, and that young Toby isn't actually a kid.

One Salt Sea:
- Marcia has just enough fae blood to be able to do some basic hearth magic, but the smell, and the lineage, is never mentioned.

Chimes at Midnight:
- Marcia drops the tray of sandwiches when Toby mentions talking to people who knew Gilad (Dean's parents, specifically)
- Marcia goes quiet, pale, and wide-eyed, when she first sees Arden, as if in recognition, before she catches herself, and goes back to acting as though she has no idea.
- The transition to Goldengreen kicks Toby's ass while she is mostly human, and she notes, internally, that she has seen Marcia make the crossing a dozen times without problems.

The Winter Long:
- Dean was shaking while holding a trident on Evening. Marcia was stone cold steady with her butcher knife.
- Marcia wasn't knocked down by Evening's magic, when every other person around her was.


My personal theory is that she is either Firstborn, or from earlier. After all, the Luidaeg can change herself so that she looks completely human. Certainly she could appear to be a weak quarter-blood if she so desired. And it would be such a complete change that nobody would be able to tell.

Another thing to consider, about the lack of comment on the smell of Marcia's magic, or her lineage: Toby almost *always* comments internally on one, or both. And when she can't identify a type (like in A Local Habitation), it bugs her. It catches her attention, and is noteworthy. Except with Marcia. Marcia gets a free, complete pass.

And my theorizing on this was just further frustrated by the total non-appearance of Marcia in Rose Red Chain. I am eagerly looking forward to learning more about her. And Amandine. And August. And Simon. And, and, and...

Let's take these points in turn:

An Artificial Night:
- Despite being 1/4 fae, she is able to tell that May isn't Toby, and that young Toby isn't actually a kid.

This was explained at the same time it was noted, by the fact that faerie ointment 'opens here eyes wider than most' and allows her not only to see through illusions, but sometimes realidty as well.

One Salt Sea:
- Marcia has just enough fae blood to be able to do some basic hearth magic, but the smell, and the lineage, is never mentioned.

Perhaps, because her blood is weak, it doesn't have a smell strong enough for Toby to detect.

Chimes at Midnight:
- Marcia drops the tray of sandwiches when Toby mentions talking to people who knew Gilad (Dean's parents, specifically)
- Marcia goes quiet, pale, and wide-eyed, when she first sees Arden, as if in recognition, before she catches herself, and goes back to acting as though she has no idea.
- The transition to Goldengreen kicks Toby's ass while she is mostly human, and she notes, internally, that she has seen Marcia make the crossing a dozen times without problems.

I find each of these to be genuinely odd. Marcia is presented as, well, kind of a ditz, but her reactions in the first two items seem to indicate fear. As for the third, Toby did say in an earlier book that crossing into a knowe became easier the more one made it. Perhaps, in her almost human state, Toby reacted as though it was her first time, because in a way, it was.

The Winter Long:
- Dean was shaking while holding a trident on Evening. Marcia was stone cold steady with her butcher knife.

Tridents, being much longer and heavier than butcher knives, are also more unwieldy It could be that this, combined with his natural nervousness as he faced off against an obviously very powerful stranger, caused Dean's shaking, whereas Marcia, who had grown to see Goldegreen as her home, was just too pissed off to be afraid.

- Marcia wasn't knocked down by Evening's magic, when every other person around her was.

This is the one that bothers me most of all. I've offered a possible explanation elsewhere. In brief, Evening left her conscious so Toby would have help keeping everyone alive.

Having said all that, let me be clear; I'm not saying there isn't something yet to be revealed about Marcia, just that much of the evidence is weak. The strongest piece is that she seemed to resist Evening's spell.

But, having just reread that portion of A Winter Long, I will say this with some confidence; if Marcia does have a secret, it isn't that she works for Evening. I truly believe she was prepared to use that knife, and she was genuinely distressed when the spell knocked Dean out. Whatever she may or may not be, I don't think she's an enemy.

Finally, to be 'earlier' than a Firstborn she'd have to be one of the Big Three, so I think that can be discounted, but Firstborn? Possibly, but I don't believe it. Nothing Evening said or did suggested that she saw anything in Marcia but a weak changeling.

But, like I already said, I'm not prepared to say that's absolutely all she is. Time, and Seanan, will tell, and if, in the end it turns out Marcia is exactly what she was always presented as, I'll remind everyone, before you cry foul, to remember a favorite device of writers through the ages ... the red herring.

This was explained at the same time it was noted, by the fact that faerie ointment 'opens here eyes wider than most' and allows her not only to see through illusions, but sometimes realidty as well.

I see this as Toby being a slightly unreliable narrator. In Rosemary and Rue, she talked about how the smell of magic cuts across almost anything else, but, later, we see that that just isn't true for most people. Quentin is barely able to smell Chelsea's magic in Ashes of Honor, in the room where it was overwhelming to Toby, and is unable to smell anything on the street when Toby is tracking patches of old magic while driving with her windows down. I think, similarly, she has mentally tagged this as "Marcia is just a little odd that way", and not re-examined that belief since. Other quarter-bloods (like Ross) still need the faerie ointment to see parts of faerie, but everybody seems a little surprised when Marcia says that she can tell when somebody is wearing an illusion (Chimes at Midnight, ch. 18). This is rather more than others have been able to do. (Oleander couldn't tell that Toby was wearing an illusion, nor vice versa.)


Perhaps, because her blood is weak, it doesn't have a smell strong enough for Toby to detect.

Given the tracking of Chelsea's magic, even days or weeks later, I wouldn't expect quarter-blood magic to be beneath her detection threshold.


[...]As for the third, Toby did say in an earlier book that crossing into a knowe became easier the more one made it. Perhaps, in her almost human state, Toby reacted as though it was her first time, because in a way, it was.

From what I have found, it is more to do with the entrance, than with the individual.
From Late Eclipses: "The more an entrance to the Summerlands is used, the more seamless the transition becomes."
From Rosemary and Rue, talking about entering Goldengreen: "The air was hot and cold at the same time, hard to breathe. This wasn't a smooth and well-crafted door like the entrance to Shadowed Hills; this was a hole ripped between worlds"

So it affected R&R Toby noticeably, even after she had touched the hope chest, but hadn't bothered Marcia.


Whatever she may or may not be, I don't think she's an enemy.

Oh, I am quite certain she is not an enemy. Too many times when she could have made things more difficult, or otherwise operated contrary to the goals of Toby and the others, and, instead, did her best to make things better. Often in the form of oddly-flavored sandwiches.


[...]Firstborn? Possibly, but I don't believe it. Nothing Evening said or did suggested that she saw anything in Marcia but a weak changeling.

From The Winter Long: "She seemed perfectly human, with her dark, curly hair hanging loose around her face, which still bore the ghosts of old acne scars. There wasn’t even the faint glitter of an illusion to mark her as fae, but that was a reflection of how powerful she really was. Only one of the Firstborn could mask their nature that completely."


But, like I already said, I'm not prepared to say that's absolutely all she is. Time, and Seanan, will tell, and if, in the end it turns out Marcia is exactly what she was always presented as, I'll remind everyone, before you cry foul, to remember a favorite device of writers through the ages ... the red herring.

I won't cry foul, but it feels to me like Seanan has given as many hints that there is something more with Marcia, as she did with hinting as to Quentin's parentage. Each time there is a new Toby book coming out, I will re-read the series up to that point, because there are so many things that have been subtly foreshadowed, and that I see very differently with the knowledge of what comes later.

I expect that, when we get the Marcia reveal, it will be the shift in perspective that causes all of those little oddities to line up, and make perfect sense.

Just my opinion. You are quite welcome to your own. I kinda picture Seanan giggling to herself, either because I am noticing these oddities but have no idea where they are pointing, or because I am finding patterns where none actually exist.

Rest assured, I absolutely love having a forum to discuss, and debate, what has become my favorite series of all time. I also enjoy playing devil's advocate 'cause, well, it gives me the giggles.

Here I'm just going to comment on that bit from The Winter Long about the Luidaeg being able to mask her nature. Yes, she can do that with someone like Toby, and I'm sure any pureblood on the planet, but that doesn't mean she can hide it from another Firstborn. That's what I was suggesting, that if Marcia is Firstborn it seems unlikely she could hide that from Evening.

Speculation is great fun, and like I said, I agree there are odd things about her. I just don't have enough information to venture to guess who she might be. I will speculate, however, that if there is more to her than meets the eye, she isn't someone we've been introduced to yet.

But, nine times out of ten I'm totally wrong when I speculate. It's the one that I live for.. And hey ... I was right about Toby having fish babies, so, yay me!

That's what I was suggesting, that if Marcia is Firstborn it seems unlikely she could hide that from Evening.

Yes, but:
1) Evening disdains changelings, and thus, presumably tends to underestimate them. She certainly underestimates Toby. I think it's not only possible that she wouldn't even take notice of Marcia, supposedly a weak-blooded changeling…I think it's more likely than not.
2) Amandine is *very* good with illusions. This is reiterated over and over. Which is interesting, because in other parts, illusions are indicated as being tied to Titania's bloodlines, but Amandine isn't related to Titania. If I were looking for someone able to cast an illusion that could fool one of Titania's Firstborn, I'd go with Amandine.

Okay, first let me get this out there. After reading Never Shines The Sun, I do not like Amandine. She was willing to steal centuries from Toby, to turn her completely human and leave her totally defenseless, just because she can't handle whatever it is Oberon has planned for her line. At this point, I can't imagine anything that would ever make me like her now.

That said, I don't, not for one second, believe Marcia could be Amandine. If she was, then that means she stood there, just stood there, and did nothing while her daughter was bleeding out, with an iron bullet lodged in her. If Amandine was capable of doing that, then she never would have saved Toby when she was elf-shot, she would have just let her die. Instead she changed her blood, and basically undid everything she had already done to her. She may be delusional, selfish and a bit cold, but that says, to me at least, that she isn't completely heartless.

I'm prepared to allow for a wide variety of possibilities when it comes to Marcia, but her being Amandine is not one of them.

Eh, I think there's one key distinction between those two scenarios. When Toby was shot, Amandine wouldn't have been the only individual who could save her. When Toby was elf-shot the first time, given that Walther hadn't yet come up with his antidote, Amandine was, in fact, the only individual who could possibly save her. With the iron bullet, all Amandine would have had to do would have been to call Lily…and, in fact, SOMEONE got word to Lily before it was too late. With the elf-shot, Amandine had to show up, start Toby bleeding and shift her blood out in the open.

I am not 100% wedded to the idea that Marcia is Amandine. There are many options as to Marcia's real identity (including being Evening's supposedly dead younger sister, Dawn). But if Amandine is hiding as Marcia, she presumably is playing a very long game, and one that does not entirely focus on Toby, assuming that she hasn't gotten hard proof of August's death et al. She would be reluctant to risk blowing her cover unless she really had to. Golden Gate Park, open to the world, with injury-resistant Toby slowly bleeding out from an iron bullet? Send a request for help to Lily ASAP and stand by in case specific blood-working skills are needed -- if not, keep fooling everyone (except for Lily). Shadowed Hills, with a limited number of people around, with Toby on the verge of death and no one else equipped to save her? Throw off disguise and fire up the blood. I don't see those two approaches as being incompatible, especially given that we presumably don't know EVERY detail of Amandine's past and Toby's role in the world.

Ah, not so fast there. Nobody called Lilly, Toby staggered all the way to the moon bridge and collapsed at the water's edge. It was her blood in the water that called Lily, and gave her permission to keep Toby alive, until she could grant her permission to heal her. Marcia's reaction at the gate gave no indication that she saw a woman soaked in blood standing before her, so she either:

1) Didn't see a blood-soaked woman, only the illusion Toby had about her, or

2) Saw through the illusion, and let this critically injured person just walk away. Toby said she almost fell half a dozen times before she got out of sight of the gate, so if Marcia had seen through the illusion there could have been no doubt that Toby was near death.

I simply cannot, will not. believe that any mother even marginally worthy of the title -- even Amandine -- could have stood that. She could easily have reacted, and Toby would have just assumed her illusion had crumbled, which it had by the time she reached the moon bridge.

Nope, I don't buy it. Unless Amandine has prescience, or the ability to sense impending death, there's no way she could have known Toby wouldn't drop dead before help got to her and, if Marcia is Amandine, she was right there.

It was her blood in the water that called Lily, and gave her permission to keep Toby alive, until she could grant her permission to heal her.
That was what Lily told Toby, when Toby asked how Lily had found her. That doesn't mean Lily was telling the truth, or the whole truth.

Unless Amandine has prescience, or the ability to sense impending death
Yes, if only she had the ability to find out all sorts of vital things from blood, such as the blood Toby was releasing… :)

Watch Marcia turn out to be someone, or something, that none of us have guessed!

My theory is that Marcia is some sort of involuntary/blackmailed into it mole for...somebody. I think she is under some kind of traitorous behavior stress that she doesn't want to be under.

Very plausible. I think her affection for Toby and Dean is completely genuine.

You know, a thought just occurred to me. We never did learn how Oleander managed to get her hands on Lily's pearl, did we?

Ooooh, there you go.

My assumption was that there was still some part of the conspiracy against the king that we don't know...maybe someone involved who is still around and would be a danger to her.