Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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A RED-ROSE CHAIN open thread!

To celebrate the release of A Red-Rose Chain, here. Have an open thread to discuss the book. Judging by the comments I'm seeing, some of you have had time, and I'd really, really rather book discussion (sometimes including spoilers) didn't crop up on other posts.

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS.

Seriously. If anyone comments here at all, THERE WILL BE SPOILERS. So please don't read and then yell at me because you encountered spoilers. You were warned. (I will not reply to every comment; I call partial comment amnesty. But I may well join some of the discussion, or answer questions or whatnot.) I will be DELETING all comments containing spoilers which have been left on other posts. No one gets to spoil people here without a label.

You can also start a discussion at my website forums, with less need to be concerned that I will see everything you say! In case you wanted, you know, discussion free of authorial influence, since I always wind up getting involved in these things.

Have fun, and try not to bleed on the carpet.
Tags: a red-rose chain, discussion post, toby daye
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  • 172 comments
Toby would certainly prefer that the nameless queen and King Rhys remain asleep, so that's two more in Toby's "Keep asleep" column.

Whether or not Toby would want Simon awakened is iffy -- yes, he has answers to questions that she would very much like answers to, but on the other hand he is very strongly geased to serve Eira's interests -- and awakening him would mean that he /knows/ a cure exists. The odds of him stealing the cure and searching for Eira would be very high (even if he didn't want to do so, the geas would force the issue).

If Toby's relationship with Luna was as it (appeared to be?) at the beginning of the series, then yeah, I agree that Toby would want Raysel awakened. But by the end of "A Winter Long" (chapter 21, to be exact), her relationship has deteriorated to the point that I'm not sure if Luna wouldn't /encourage/ Raysel to attack Toby -- and I have no confidence at all that she would act to /stop/ Raysel from attacking Toby. At this point, Luna seems to be as unstable as Raysel used to be, and (given the nature of the books) I suspect that this is will turn out to be caused by one of Toby's enemies (Eira being the obvious candidate).

It would be very out-of-character for Toby to make the above calculation, though, so yeah, I expect Raysel to be awake in the next book. But I don't think this is a /wise/ decision, and this would happen whether or not Toby tried to keep the cure secret or not.

And I agree that if I were Toby I would make every effort to murder Eira before she awakes -- but again, Toby doesn't make wise decisions very often. :)
Yeah, you cot me with Rhys and Queen Crazy. I'm sure Toby wouldn't mind one bit if they locked them in a room and then totally forgot where they put the key ... and the room. I think you're overestimating what a geas is capable of, however. As I recall from my years of D&D, the conditions have to be pretty specifically spelled out when the spell is cast, so unless Eira included "if I'm ever elfshot and dumped in a forgotten corner of Faerie, come find me," I don't think Simon will be looking for her.

Now, mind you, I'm not even suggesting that Toby is ever going to forgive him, trust him, or even like him, but I believe he showed in The Winter Long that, in his own twisted way, he did try to protect her. As for Raysel, like I've said, I really hope that Toby shifting her blood has fixed her, and I hope that can help bring back the Luna we grew to love. For me, meeting Ceres was so bittersweet, because I too was reminded of that Luna. I want her back.

As for the wisdom of Toby not going back to finish Evening, I'll borrow a line from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Toby's a hero, she's not like us. (Season 5 'The Gift.' Giles to Ben ... just before he kills him.)
Plus she's already broken Oberon's Law and had some trouble with it previously. She may not want to repeat that again.
Keep in mind, though, that Simon is a somewhat willing co-conspirator with Eira -- she has promised to save August from some unspecified problem if he helps her achieve some unspecified end. This is an "Anakin agrees to kill Mace Weidu because he believes that Palaptine is the only one who can save Padme" scenario, and is obviously very dangerous for Toby (or anyone else) who Eira identifies as a roadblock. Simon has also shown that, while he doesn't want Toby to be harmed, he has a /very/ odd definition of harm -- turning her to a fish, and trying to turn her into a tree are both considered "no harm" from his point of view.

The best way to fix the problem with Simon is for Toby (or someone else) to fix the problem with August, and the only way to do /that/ involves waking Simon up (as he, Amandine, August, and Eira are the only one with the details), so I suspect that you are correct that Toby will end up waking Simon -- but, again, not a wise decision. Of course, if characters in books made wise decisions consistently, books would be quite a bit more boring, wouldn't they? :)

Amusing side-note -- try a Google search for "October Daye's mother". Google really /does/ know everything...
"Somewhat willing co-conspirator," are you sure about that? Remember who Eira is, the Daoine Sidhe Firstborn. As Toby said, "I had seen firsthand just how hard it was for Evening's descendants to tell her no." How sure can anyone be, even Simon, that he had any choice in the matter at all?

His odd definition of harm isn't odd at all, for a fae. In the minds of many purebloods, most perhaps, you can do anything you want to someone, as long as you don't break Oberon's Law. Rhys and the False Queen certainly believed that and, of course, under her reign, Simon could have killed Toby with impunity, because she's just a changeling. No, you can't hold Simon's point of view here against him, because it isn't his, it's that of his society.

So, Simon may well have been under a compulsion even before the geas, and his charming approach to protecting Toby is really just a product of his heritage. Given that, where do we stand? Well, for my part, I can only stand by Toby, there on the Thorn Road. Again, in her words, "When the chips were down, he'd tried to change sides. In that moment, in that place, that was good enough for me."

Toby has to wake Simon, because there is no way she can let the mystery of what happened to August go. She's a lost child (figuratively speaking), and she's her sister. So yes, she'll wake him ... I just hope she never turns her back on him.

Changing gears, I think we may see Amandine playing a role in the search for August as well. She's been spending all this time wandering the Summerlands, rattling doors no one can see, as though she was looking for something. I think we know now that it's someone, not something, -shes been looking for.

Oh, and Cortana is also familiar with Toby. Seanan's site was 5th on the list she returned, but Cortana can be forgiven that, I believe. After all, Google knew Daye has an 'e.'

Regretfully, I don't think we can ever get old Luna back. I suspect that all those years with her parents, plus the years she lostwhen Simon kidnapped her and Raysel have really worked a number on Luna. Ceres left before Blimlnd Michael's land went completely wonky. Luna didn't. It's also pretty clear that there is A LOT of mental instability in their family. Mental instability is frequently hereditary in humans and it seems pretty clear that that is true in fae as well. I suuspect that what sanity Luna had came primarily from Hoshibara and Hoshibara is completely gone since Raysel poisoned Luna.