A RED-ROSE CHAIN open thread!

I've got something I think will make for an interesting discussion, First, some quotes from the book, from Chapter 12, after Marlis is freed from the loyalty spell:

Oberon's Law forbids killing: nothing more, nothing less. Elf-shot is allowed. Loyalty potions and brainwashing are allowed. And anything that doesn't quite kill, well, that's all right too. That's not a death. All he ever told us not to do to each other was murder. Everything else is still on the table.

And at the end of the chapter:

Oberon might not have been willing to forbid the things that we did to each other, but maybe he should have -- and maybe that was why so many of his descendants were heroes. Because we had to fix what he couldn't, or hadn't, or wouldn't.

Oberon's omissions do seem rather short-sighted. I've pondered this a lot, and not just since A Red-Rose Chain was released. Why did Oberon leave his children so much wiggle room, so many avenues to do terrible things without fear of punishment? Here's the answer I've come up with: he did it because he wanted them to do it themselves. He wanted them to develop wisdom, and to take responsibility for themselves -- he wanted them to grow up and stop acting like children.

Now, if we accept this hypothesis for his actions as fact, then I believe we have already solved the mystery of the disappearance of the Three. They left because the fae were never going to mature as long as they had their Father and Mothers to carry the load for them. Did all three of them agree to this? I'm guessing no, that Oberon imposed his will, on one or both of his Queens. He left his children with a foundation, a single commandment, don't murder each other, and then left them to build the rest on their own, or destroy themselves.

But he didn't leave them completely on their own. The dochas sidhe are part of his plan. I think I have an idea of why he created them; they're supposed to balance out the low birth rate of the fae, by shifting the blood of those changelings that Choose Faerie, making them purebloods. Changelings certainly don't have problems breeding, just look at the mob of children Mitch and Stacey have produced, so if even just a quarter of the changelings, living and yet to come, Choose Faerie, the fae will see an unprecedented rate of growth.

Of course there will be a lot of purebloods who won't like this idea one bit. They won't want to see a bunch of dirty mongrels getting elevated to their equals, because they know that in a relatively short span of time, those shifted changelings will outnumber them. That's why Oberon left the fae with one more thing.

He left them heroes.

Think about it; from everything we know to this point, Amandine is descended solely from Oberon. That means a good percentage of her children will be heroes, but heroes aren't just drafted, they have to choose to take up the mantle, and accept the price that comes with it. One more quote, this time from the Luidaeg in Never Shines The Sun:

Seven years; that's how long I waited before I went to see her, before I went to meet her little girl. And the worst of it is that now, all I can do is wait. I'll wait seven more years, and seven more after that, seven times seven and seventy more, if that's what it takes, until a child of Amandine's line steps up and does what's needed doing for centuries.

To me, it seems clear that Oberon is trying to affect a fundamental change in his children. Even if I'm totally wrong about what that change is, I think we can all agree on one thing. Toby is that child.

Of course there will be a lot of purebloods who won't like this idea one bit. They won't want to see a bunch of dirty mongrels getting elevated to their equals, because they know that in a relatively short span of time, those shifted changelings will outnumber them.

I remember one series of of Elizabeth Moon's SF books talks about the impact of longevity drugs on the younger generations. As long as the Three were around, they were the ultimate parental figures. But, also, so many of the fae fossilize in. Even with the 'madness' that acts as a coping mechanism for living for such a long time, old fae persist. Many of them do step down from positions of power, but even then, I can imagine having trouble if Dad/Mom were present, watching you rule. Even then, a young heir might wait for centuries to have something to do. What do immortals need with children, besides to cope with the slight attrition to accident?

So, not only did Oberon's children not have to grow up, but the societal changes are glacial because the generations take forever to turn over. (I'd wager that Selkies and Cait Sidhe are some of the fae races where this is less so, the Selkies because their children aren't immortal, the Cait Sidhe both because they lead more lethal lives and because they have a much more integrated role for changelings. It might be all but impossible for a changeling to have the power needed to become a King/Queen of Cats, but they can fulfill other roles in the court.)

But if changelings are thrown into the picture, especially those raised outside of the Summerlands, you have a lot of younger fae, especially younger fae who were raised in the local human culture. The Summerlands are large enough that finding things for them to do might be possible (and required). And, with enough of them, they'll push for things to do and start to steer culture towards... well, something else. Hopefully, something more humane, though since this will be a revolution, I suspect a rocky road. Few can handle change gracefully.

(Already you see a difference between Mists and Silences in adoption of mortal technology, like cell phones. The false Queen was never able to stomp out more progressive nobility like the Torquills the way Rhys could.)

I generally agree with this, though in regards to Maeve it sounds like Janet took her out during the whole Tam Lin thing with Blind Michael's Ride.

Um, I think. I am not totally sure on that one.

I believe you're mistaken with this. I'm pretty sure Oberon, Titania and Maeve all vanished at the same time, and in The Winter Long, it appeared as though Maeve answered the Luidaeg's plea to her on the Thorn Road.

I'm really not clear on it, I was just rereading An Artificial Night and that's what came up. I didn't remember that before and was surprised. I would presume that they all went off around the same time, but maybe not all at once together?

Eh, I don't know.

Still wonder how Maeve answers a request though.

Pointing out that the Ludiaeg made a reference to Amandine's mother, and implied it was neither Maeve nor Titania. Could Amandine have been born a changeling, and changed herself all the way to fae?

No, she couldn't , because she is Firstborn, and all Firstborn are purebloods, as per this post.

Oberon apparently had children with other pureblood fae. I think that in the thread on Faerie descent, our esteemed hostess mentioned that Firstborn is Firstborn regardless of the other parentage; I'm not sure that Oberon could even *have* a changeling. (Call it dominant genes.)

I finally figured it out, I think. Heaven knows that Seannan's totally surprised me before, but many clues point to Evening Wintersong as Amandine's mother.
1) The Ludieag said that Amandine's mother was not Titania or Maeve
2) The answer to Toby's question "Is that, 'you can't say' or 'you won't say' " was "Can't, can't, ALWAYS can't" , and we KNOW Evening had her geased to not be able to say things.
3). "When I thought I was dione sidh I never questioned that [Evening's] magic and my mother's both smelled of roses"
4). I'm still wanting to look further on this, but it has also been said that there's a hereditary component to the smells of magic that Toby detects. If Oberon (blood) magic had a child with his daughter, the "Blood" component would be strengthened. (Is Toby's 'copper' smell really blood, but fainter? It ought to be, and she does describe blood as tasting "metalic")

That stood out to me too. The previous times she's shifted someone's blood has been forced or to avert disaster—Raysel, the nameless queen, Chelsea, Gillian. This book, she offers to do it twice, first to Jolgeir and then to the Queen of Silences. And the second time is really, "Please let me do this, I really want to." The flip side, though, is the enemies that want to make use of her blood for nefarious purposes. I'm curious to see if more villains go after that.

Toby has had more time to process her abilities now. From her perspective, as a changeling, what she can do is a game-changer. "I can offer them a Choice, a real choice, one where they get to belong completely to whichever world they choose." What the dochas sidhe can do means changelings who choose human, and their mortal parent, no longer have to die to protect Faerie.