Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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THE WINTER LONG open thread!

To celebrate the release of The Winter Long, here. Have an open thread to discuss the book. Judging by the comments I'm seeing, some of you have had time, and I'd really, really rather book discussion (sometimes including spoilers) didn't crop up on other posts.

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS.

Seriously. If anyone comments here at all, THERE WILL BE SPOILERS. So please don't read and then yell at me because you encountered spoilers. You were warned. (I will not reply to every comment; I call partial comment amnesty. But I may well join some of the discussion, or answer questions or whatnot.) I will be DELETING all comments containing spoilers which have been left on other posts. No one gets to spoil people here without a label.

You can also start a discussion at my website forums, with less need to be concerned that I will see everything you say! In case you wanted, you know, discussion free of authorial influence, since I always wind up getting involved in these things.

Have fun, and try not to bleed on the carpet.
Tags: discussion post, the winter long, toby daye
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  • 336 comments
What the freaking what to the what, I MEAN. I both love and hate this book for all the answers it gave and all the new questions that led to.

Like oh, I don't know...who the hell is Amandine's mother?! I'm racking my brain trying to think what figure of significance could be old enough to be her mother (even given that she's the youngest of the Firstborn) while not already descended from Oberon in their own right. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Amandine's the ultimate changeling, and her mother was mortal - these being the interesting mix of truths and lies, as if this is true, it would basically upend everything Faerie believes about the limitations of changelings and their place in Faerie.

Its highly significant to me that just as we see Toby really coming into her own and confidently wielding her power to alter the balance of one's blood...the power that allowed her to choose to become more Faerie than human.....immediately after, we learn that Amandine is the daughter of neither of the Queens. That literally the only line in all of Faerie with the power to choose just what they will be, is descended of unknown lineage.

So now, what I'm wondering is this: we know that every race in Faerie has their own unique magic and skills, derived largely from which of the Big Three their Firstborn claimed as parent (children of Oberon wielding blood, children of Titania flowers, and Maeve water. My question then: is the unique magic of each Faerie race random, or is there a pattern to it all? And if the latter, did Oberon, Titania and Maeve have some measure of influence over what magic each of their children would possess?

Because suddenly Amandine and Toby's ability to shift the balance of their own blood seems very interesting to me. If Oberon and his queens DID have the power to influence or even choose what magic their children would possess, then what better magic to gift his only changeling daughter with other than the ability to choose her own fate - live a mortal life like her mother, or choose her father fully and shift her blood to completely Faerie. (Note again how heavy an emphasis this book placed on Faerie's tradition of a child choosing which parent to claim, and this being the basis for all things like inheritance, succession, etc).

So mark me down as someone who thinks Amandine's mother was mortal, a Scottish woman most likely, who raised Amandine until she was old enough to shift the balance of her own blood and become fully Faerie like her father. And I think this has something to do with why she was the Last Among the First, and Oberon and his queens vanished not long after. I think something changed, once the full implications of what Amandine was capable of became clear - making herself into a Firstborn capable of siring a whole race of immortals despite being born mortal herself....that had to upset some delicate supernatural balance, and somewhere in there I think is why the King and Queens had no more children after her and vanished not much later. It was the ultimate fusion of Faerie and the mortal realm, and would have definitely marked a shift in what it meant to be Faerie.



And on a tangential note - is it just me, or is anyone else wondering if somehow, in some way, August isn't October's half-sister, but in fact is October herself? (Or the other way around, more accurately). Not sure how this would work yet, and just a hunch based on a bunch of random observations, but....Simon made it clear that Amandine was as obsessed with finding or regaining their daughter as he was. They just took extremely different views of how to go about that. Add to that the way Evening almost seemed to go back and forth as to whether she viewed Toby as mortal, a changeling, or full Faerie. Sometimes she was saying Toby was one thing, sometimes the other, but there was a definite thread of 'just how mortal are you, Toby, if at all' in there. Something that was supported by a couple of things said by other characters throughout the narrative too. And also Amandine's insistence that Sylvester leave her alone while she raised Toby with Toby's human father, that she wasn't to be interfered with until she was ready to come back to Faerie on her own terms....

Fact is, we don't really have any idea of what Amandine and Toby are actually capable of, and neither do most of the other characters I think. Plenty of characters remember Amandine being pregnant with Toby, Evening makes a point of saying she was at Toby's christening herself....but what if August did die, and Amandine somehow used her magic to retain the essence of August's blood and put it into her new unborn child? I'm not sure how that would work yet exactly, but I feel like maybe there's something there, like Toby was somehow meant to be August reborn, like while pregnant with her Amandine altered her blood (and blood magic according to this book is the magic of memory and theft) and mixed the essence of her lost child into her new one?
I wondered this exact same thing! If Amandine was half as desperate for her child as Simon was, Amandine stopping to play fairy bride (only to later go mad over it) is a strange move.

It would just make everything so much more delicious, especially with Simon and Sylvester and Luna and how disastrously that's worked out. It's that extra twist that would make it just that little bit more gut wrenching in the future. I want it.
Oh, I wondered that. Maybe not by quite that mechanism, but if the "Toby" that was born had been nothing but a trick, to hide that Amandine had found her daughter. That maybe all the desperation keep her safe came from that.
And now I'm going to think of this as the "My Sweet Audrina" theory.
I was thinking the same thing :P
I did also initially think that maybe Simon was October's real father, but for some reason made out to be fathered by a mortal man. That's confusing and sounds really complicated (i.e. removing one blood and adding another) but I suppose not impossible if Amandine really wanted to do it. Your theory of "transplanting" her into her unborn child sounds more plausible, maybe similar to how April has been transplanted into computers. Maybe that's also partly the reason why her Fetch eventually stayed--because October was essentially two people in one body, regardless of how well-melded they (August/October) were.

Still, if Amandine wanted to preserve August that much--after all, she started off by trying to find August by any means possible--why did she want to turn October fully mortal? That would pretty much mean October just lives a mortal life span and dies.
why did she want to turn October fully mortal?

"I was going to make sure Faerie never had the chance to hurt her." - Amandine, in Never Shines the Sun.

If we take her at her word (and the Luidaeg does), she thought she was protecting October from something - perhaps the same threat that August met.

Maybe she just wanted one child she could keep, even if she lost that child to old age before a century passed.
Yes, I remember that (Amandine wanting to make sure Faerie would not hurt October) although my question was more of "if she went through all the trouble of putting August in her new unborn child, why would then she try to turn that child (presumably, to her eyes, still August) human?" Although I suppose the argument (she would prefer October/August to die of old age than to be with her forever) still holds even then. A second chance at life, so to speak.
Ahem. I didn't quite like this theory at first, but then I read this line, in which Toby thinks about the Luidaeg in chapter 20, comparing her "Annie-face" to her usual face:

"They were very similar; she could have been her own sister."

In the same book in which we discover October has a sister. Heh. Interesting.

I had been toying with the idea of Marcia being related to Toby. (Marcia = similar to March.) There are a number of reasons I still like that. But that line ... man, I don't know.