Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire
  • Mood: awake
  • Music: Amal and Stuart making brekkie.

THE WINTER LONG open thread!

To celebrate the release of The Winter Long, here. Have an open thread to discuss the book. Judging by the comments I'm seeing, some of you have had time, and I'd really, really rather book discussion (sometimes including spoilers) didn't crop up on other posts.

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS.

Seriously. If anyone comments here at all, THERE WILL BE SPOILERS. So please don't read and then yell at me because you encountered spoilers. You were warned. (I will not reply to every comment; I call partial comment amnesty. But I may well join some of the discussion, or answer questions or whatnot.) I will be DELETING all comments containing spoilers which have been left on other posts. No one gets to spoil people here without a label.

You can also start a discussion at my website forums, with less need to be concerned that I will see everything you say! In case you wanted, you know, discussion free of authorial influence, since I always wind up getting involved in these things.

Have fun, and try not to bleed on the carpet.
Tags: discussion post, the winter long, toby daye
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  • 336 comments

jenk

September 2 2014, 17:59:15 UTC 2 years ago

SPOILERS. REALLY REALLY SPOILERS.
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SERIOUSLY.
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...Simon wasn't the one behind the enfishening. Simon was hired to kill Toby, and actually chose "tranformed" over "dead".

But WHY did Evening want Toby dead? Speculation: Concern that Toby couldn't be controlled and was too loyal to Sylvester?

I also note that according to Rosemary & Rue, Evening supported the pretender Queen. Wonder if Queen Arden threw a wrinkle in Evening's plans in The Winter Long....

kassrachel

September 2 2014, 18:12:33 UTC 2 years ago

I suspect that Evening's desire to kill Toby stems from something much bigger than her loyalty to Sylvester. I can't help thinking that it has something to do with her parentage and abilities. What I wouldn't give to sit down with Amandine and learn some answers right about now... *grin*

jenk

September 2 2014, 21:10:29 UTC 2 years ago Edited:  September 2 2014, 21:37:50 UTC

Quite possible! And could tie into why Evening had Luna & Raysel kidnapped. (Remembering that Luna is also Evening's niece....)

I'm also wondering if Evening's related to whatever happened with August.

jenfullmoon

September 4 2014, 00:31:45 UTC 2 years ago

That quake sure has a lot to answer for.

dornbeast

September 4 2014, 08:38:09 UTC 2 years ago

My thought on this begins with a question:

Why did the Luideag describe the Dochas Sidhe as "the competition?" Is there some prize yet to be won, or is this just a reference to the fact that the Daoine Sidhe and the Dochas Sidhe are the top two for blood magic?

vixyish

September 2 2014, 18:28:11 UTC 2 years ago

I can't stop giggling at "the enfishening." :D

jenk

September 2 2014, 21:11:31 UTC 2 years ago

Yay! I was pleased with that one too :)

rymenhild

September 2 2014, 19:50:09 UTC 2 years ago

The pretender Queen thought, "She'll kill me," when Toby drank her blood. But "she" isn't Toby. That caught my attention in the original reading. The ex-Queen works, or worked, for the Winterrose.

What I want to know is why Evening wanted Toby to find the hope chest Goldengreen. I have suspicions about it, though...

jenk

September 2 2014, 21:40:08 UTC 2 years ago Edited:  September 2 2014, 22:22:35 UTC

Good one! It does seem logical that the ex-Queen worked for, or with, or owes the Winterrose.

(Also puts a different light in how the pretender Queen refused to help Toby investigate Evening's "death".)

Yes, sending Toby for the hope chest seems odd. Did Evening expect Toby to use it?

rymenhild

September 3 2014, 02:16:28 UTC 2 years ago

I think Evening expected Toby to find it.

From the novella "Through This House," we learned (spoilers for that story in ROT13) gung gur Jvagreebfr qvqa'g bcra Tbyqraterra. Nznaqvar qvq, jvgu gur uryc bs n snr jbzna jub znl be znl abg unir orra Frcgrzore Gbedhvyy.

We have also learned (references to Chimes and Winter, detailed speculation) gung gur ubcr purfg vf anzrq Tbyqraterra. Gur xrl gung svaqf gur ubcr purfg vf n xrl gb gur fhzzre ebnqf gung vf nffbpvngrq va fbzr jnl jvgu Znrir; gur Yhvqnrt hfrf vg gb pnyy ba ure.

Fb jung jnf gur Jvagreebfr qbvat va n xabjr gung jnf bcrarq ol Nznaqvar? Jung jnf gur Jvagreebfr qbvat jvgu n ubcr purfg gung funerq vgf anzr jvgu gung xabjr -- znlor rira tnir vgf anzr gb gung xabjr? Jung jnf gur Jvagreebfr, ryqrfg qnhtugre bs Gvgnavn, qbvat jvgu n xrl pbaarpgrq gb Znrir?

V fhozvg gung gur ubcr purfg naq xrl jrer nyjnlf va Tbyqraterra, fvapr vgf sbhaqvat; gung Nznaqvar uvq gur purfg jvgu gur uryc bs gur xrl, gung gur Jvagreebfr pbhyq abg hfr; naq gung gur Jvagreebfr unq ab evtug gb gur purfg. Ohg Gbol, Nznaqvar'f qnhtugre, qvq. Ol grzcgvat Qriva jvgu gur ubcr purfg naq ratvarrevat ure nggnpx, naq ol phefvat Gbol gb fbyir gur zlfgrel, gur Jvagreebfr tbg Gbol gb svaq naq oevat bhg gur ubcr purfg sebz vgf uvqvat cynpr. Vg jbhyq cerfhznoyl or npprffvoyr gb gur Jvagreebfr sebz gung cbvag ba.

angelamaria

September 3 2014, 08:16:22 UTC 2 years ago

I haven't read the novella, so that was interesting to me. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but that Library book says that the hope chest named Goldengreen was given to Eira, right? Or was it just that "a hopechest" was given to Eira (not named)?

That does confuse me, if so. Was it given to Eira and then given to someone else (and not recorded)? But it makes sense why Toby would have to be the one to find it, and why she needed to die.

That said, I had always been confused why a fae named "Evening Winterrose" would have a knowe named "Goldengreen". I mean, golden and green doesn't exactly evoke winters. That makes a lot of sense now.

I need to get that book.

dornbeast

September 3 2014, 08:59:20 UTC 2 years ago

One flaw with this hypothesis: It's clearly stated in Chimes at Midnight that Goldengreen was given to Eira Rosynhwyr for safekeeping.

sleary

September 3 2014, 15:17:39 UTC 2 years ago

Safe, yes, but from whom? Because in that (awesome) scenario, it would have been pretty safe from Eira herself.

arya

September 3 2014, 18:55:00 UTC 2 years ago

My pet theory is Eira is the Firstborn who betrayed the Roane. The Luidaeg plans to use Toby to restore the Roane at the expense of the Selkies, and Eira may want Toby dead to prevent that. For that matter, Eira may have been responsible for August's disappearance...

My other pet theory (and I haven't finished TWL yet, so this might be revealed or disproven by the time I'm done) links into this one - that Eira is holding August hostage somehow, and that the thing Simon wanted more than anything else was to have his daughter, August, returned to him, and for that he was willing to betray his brother and enfishenate his stepdaughter.

jenfullmoon

September 4 2014, 00:37:46 UTC 2 years ago

I don't know about the rest of it, but I totally think that's the Luidaeg's plan. WHEN WILL WE HEAR ABOUT THE SELKIES ALREADY?!?!?

I think Eira was confirmed in this book as the Roane betrayer.

angelamaria

September 4 2014, 02:32:20 UTC 2 years ago

My pet theory is Eira is the Firstborn who betrayed the Roane.

I was going to say something, then saw that you haven't finished TWL yet, haha. You're brave to be looking at this post, lots of spoilers around.

arya

September 4 2014, 11:30:57 UTC 2 years ago Edited:  September 4 2014, 11:32:11 UTC

Not very brave - at this point I've done so much speculating that I don't think Seanan will surprise me :) She's laid a lot of clues out along the way, and I've re-read them all three times now, and I've speculated ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Having finished it now, I'm taking my pet theories a bit further. I think the Dochas Sidhe abilities will allow the Roane to be restored but that it would require a ritual to kill Eira. Amandine may have some kind of Firstborn prohibition against hurting Eira, and thus be unable to do it herself. I think August fought with her mother about this very thing - August would have wanted to help Auntie Annie, but Amandine wouldn't want her to risk herself.

I wonder if August has been elf-shot. Did it occur to anyone else that she's been gone right around 100 years? So if her disappearance was due to elf-shot, she would be waking up any day now.

I also wonder whether the Luidaeg is the one holding August's slumbering body, and if she's been doing some kind of experimentation on her magic while she's been asleep, to figure out how August and/or October can save her children.

arya

September 4 2014, 11:38:49 UTC 2 years ago

Oh-- and I also think that whatever it would take to restore the Roane would come with massive risk to the Dochas Sidhe who performs it... and that the Dread Pirate Luidaeg's threats are very, very real. She WILL kill Toby one day (or at least, push her to the very limits of her life-force).

The thing the Luidaeg said to Toby after waking up, though, that's interesting. "I owe you a debt I may never be able to repay / say you understand." I have a feeling that once Toby kills herself saving the Roane, the Luidaeg will use blood magic to borrow Toby's powers and bring her back to life.

Also, since Amandine woke Toby up from elfshot by rebalancing her blood, and Toby woke up / revived Gillian from elfshot by rebalancing hers, I am curious why Toby rebalancing Raysel didn't wake her up, too. I wonder if it has to do with Gillian and Toby's mortality - that elfshot was fatal to them, and the Dochas Sidhe rebalancing was actually bringing the dead mortals back to life... that it didn't wake up Raysel because she's not mortal. But then, Toby brought the Luidaeg back from the dead, and the Luidaeg certainly has no mortality in her. Hmm. Curious.

dornbeast

September 5 2014, 04:34:42 UTC 2 years ago

That wasn't standard-issue elfshot, though. It had Dugan's little bonus poison thrown in.

angelamaria

September 4 2014, 13:14:35 UTC 2 years ago

I think the Dochas Sidhe abilities will allow the Roane to be restored

I think it's certainly possible; after all, something in those skins must still be "Roane" after all. Although I'm more curious as to if the Luidaeg will ever be able to mother more Roane? Or is it dependent on actually having the same father, for the offspring to be Roane (in which case, it really is a shame--since obviously the father is gone now)? Although I haven't heard of a Firstborn who created more than one race... (and would mean that August and October would be different races)

I don't think the Luidaeg would be cruel enough to withhold Amandine's daughter from her, especially given that her own children were slaughtered (pretty much). But it is possible that she may blame herself as well for what has happened to August, especially if it is HER candle (and not just a similar candle) that August is holding, and that if she was trying to make use of the Dochas Sidhe to bring the Roane back.

arya

September 4 2014, 15:02:03 UTC 2 years ago

I don't think the Luidaeg would be cruel enough to withhold Amandine's daughter from her

Wouldn't she? 1- Amandine is as nutty as an almond tree, and 2- Amandine stole centuries off of Toby's life in her attempts to "protect" her. Given what we saw in "Never Shines the Sun" I absolutely think the Luidaeg would hold on to the slumbering August, if it meant protecting her from Amandine.

But then, that would raise the question of why the Luidaeg needs Toby if she's already got August. Being half Dochas Sidhe and half Daoine Sidhe, I'd expect August to be the greatest bloodworker in all of Faerie.

angelamaria

2 years ago

  • New comment

jenfullmoon

September 4 2014, 14:11:26 UTC 2 years ago

Oooh, good point. I'd love to see a fairy wake up from elfshot at some point around here, too.

seanan_mcguire

September 4 2014, 10:21:45 UTC 2 years ago

When one of my proofers said Amandine didn't deserve Simon, I knew I'd gotten it right.

marziek

September 8 2014, 00:36:34 UTC 2 years ago

I loved this book. It was really a masterful story arc. Simon was wonderfully wrought.

I haven't had time to read all of it the second time yet so I bought the audiobook to listen when I drive.

kveberle

September 4 2014, 19:36:39 UTC 2 years ago

I have had issues with Evening for a while. Supporting the queen, the treatment of pixies, etc. I have been annoyed with Toby's opinions of her because of that- so this was perfect for my pov.