On spoilers.

I strongly believe (and have written about extensively) that spoilers are primarily a question of manners.

In the case you cite, you prioritise the general courtesy of "don't ruin the surprise for someone who doesn't want surprises" lower than the *specific* courtesy of "don't let your friend walk into a known trigger". And that's *entirely* appropriate, when you view it through the lens of etiquette.

I was pretty alarmed when I watched "Hemlock Grove" because of triggering reasons. I myself don't have those kinds of triggers, and it is labeled horror so I expected the violence, gore, nudity and sex, but there was absolutely no warning for the incest and rape scenes. I was left wondering what people who have those triggers can even *do* to find out what they can and can't watch comfortably.

I can say from hanging out on Tumblr that I've seen 99% of Supernatural through gifs alone. Watching the series hasn't been so much a discovery of the story as a discovery of, "Oh so THAT'S where that gifset came from." I'm still sitting around 3 seasons behind because there's not that much that's new to me. I was spoiled for season 9 drama about 30 minutes after the east coast episode. Shit, I was essentially spoiled by the ACTORS on Twitter.

Part of me wonders if there's some kind of divide based on your longevity as an internet denizen. The people I know who've been around forever tend to have a more rigorous spoiler filter, either using cut tags or other announcements. At least in my internet neighborhood (barring Tumblr, which is just spoilerville), the people who tend to post the most spoilers are random relatives or young cousins, neither of which grew up with any kind of ingrained internet manners. Maybe it's similar to how vigilant people are with trigger warnings, those of us who've been around a while see them as necessary kindness, while newcomers may see them as just PC silliness.

I started watching Supernatural because of all the gifs on tumblr. And, ugh, I'm right there with you on the actor spoilers on twitter. If I had...whatever channel SN was on, all Padalecki's livetweeting would be great, but as it stands I have to bail off twitter for like two hours on a show night because I don't want to know what's going on and because, without context, some of it is kinda gibberish.

There is a truth in this.

I agree so much with this. I still remember how TIRED it made me that I had to read Harry Potter the instant it came out so that I wouldn't be spoiled on things...eventually it ruined my enjoyment of the series...which is sad since I probably would have still read them in the first two days or so that that they were released anyway!

I've definitely been known not to watch a movie or a series if something was spoiled for me and, while I definitely appreciate if someone warns me that giant spiders are going to eat the face of every main character, I usually try to avoid spoilers.

But saying "spoilers are bad" and "spoilers are wrong" seems very...I don't know, privileged?

How interesting. I totally get where you go with that, and I agree. Frankly, if someone is literally WANTING spoilers, for whatever reasons including the ones you list, I think that's fine. That's a private contract between the person who NEEDS/wants to be spoiled and the person delving out the info.

But the reason your comment made me do a double-take is because when I read Wendig's post and then a post from Lisa Manchev that sort of countered it, I came up with the realization that people telling spoiler-phobes to stay off the internet are very.... PRIVILEGED.

Because like you said, "not everyone can go to every opening night, watch every show the second it airs, read every book in ARC form three months before publication." And for those people who've already watched it and want to bombast their discussions all over facebook or twitter or whatnot to turn around and tell everyone else to stay off the internet, that's a load of privileged bull. Because being able to watch these things opening night, or the day it airs, or read/see it early is a privilege. So is having the internet, for that matter, but the internet and facebook and twitter and ALL THESE THINGS are such a regular, daily part of our lives (how many people have push notifications turned on, etc?) that being told to just stay off the internet is just..... gah! It'd be one thing if a person was visiting forums/websites on the very thing they don't want to be spoiled on and then getting MAD over seeing spoilers (in that case, staying away from those sites is a perfectly valid and logical comeback), but to just stay off the entire internet, when now even news publications seem to think that whether or not this character kissed that character on a television show is newsworthy? Come on.....

Anyway, I just totally took your point and ran in a completely opposite direction. I'm not arguing it at all: rather, I love your point, and it's a great angle I hadn't considered in the discussion on spoiler wars (which is, in and of itself, a privileged discussion). I don't like spoilers, but that doesn't mean if someone asks me for them specifically that I won't divulge. I've also asked for spoilers on occasion, not for triggery reasons so much as wanting to know if something is worth still investing in.

But the reason your comment made me do a double-take is because when I read Wendig's post and then a post from Lisa Manchev that sort of countered it, I came up with the realization that people telling spoiler-phobes to stay off the internet are very.... PRIVILEGED.

Not to mention that sometimes not even staying off the Internet will spare you; some years ago, at a U.S. science-fiction convention that took place shortly after the British airing of the Torchwood episode "Children of Earth", I got to see the 500-pound Spoilerzilla parading around on T-shirts, buttons, flyers, and petitions--before BBC America had even had a chance to run the episode.

I have a phobia. It's better than it used to be. But it still causes sleepless nights sometimes. I hate it when someone drops a trigger into something just because they can. I had to stop playing video games. The designer's favorite trick "Oh, this is scary lets make them fight these. Now there's a whole level of these." I couldn't get my friends to vet the games for me because it wasn't memorable enough that they could tell. I'd get recommendations. "Oh this game is safe for you." It wasn't.

My phobia is eight-legged "angry mosquitoes" as my husband calls them. They are EVERYWHERE in gaming. I have joked that if a game designer of a fantasy game ever made a game that didn't include those creatures as a monster-type, I'd play the heck out of that game and send the designers huge tokens of thanks.

It's not happened yet though :(

Thank you for this. I have severe issues with some things in visual media (rape, threat of rape, any violent conflict between males/females, etc. etc. etc.) and I do seek out spoilers so that I can avoid feeling ooky for days/weeks after consuming same. I hate people who seem to think I'm less than because I actively seek said spoilers-- they think I'm ruining the pure experience of story. Well, sorry, but I'd rather KNOW what I'm paying for before I get a face full of something I can't deal with. And that's a bit sad, but I figure I experience the story my way, and it's okay.

I'm less triggered by words on paper, but I still check to be sure there are no uber-explicit attacks since I got blindsided by a mystery novel last year -- written by a woman, too, and just way too graphic.

I recognize there is a statute of limitations. I work in a bookstore, I have had game of thrones spoiled for me. I expected it, and while I did go "Man, I haven't read them yet!" I didn't get that upset.
However, the night of the Walking Dead season finale, two of my twitter folks live-tweeted the show (with plot twists, death updates, etc.) I was at work during the show, and came home to read Twitter before bed (planning to watch the episode first thing the next morning simply because I didn't want it to be spoiled). One of the very first tweets I saw was a recap of the episode. It ruined basically all the twists in the episode for me. Both people got un-followed, but I couldn't take back that knowledge.
And even now I have tried to keep this as vague as possible because I don't know your lives and if you've seen it yet. I think it's the polite thing to do, along with adding "warning: spoilers for walking dead season finale" at the beginning if you are going to talk in-depth about things. It's just polite.
I guess I just wonder how hard it is to stop and ask "have you seen it yet?" Or add a spoiler tag at the beginning of text. For anything, really. Because yeah, Buffy has been out forever, but I still haven't watched the final season. Mostly because everyone spoils the final episode for me and I keep hoping I'll forget and then be able to watch it properly.

Though it is worth noting that I try to warn friends without spoiling. "There is a incest/rape scene in the movie, wanted you to know before you get in the theatre" is different from "So it turns out character X is actually evil and then kidnaps Y....etc" I find there is usually a good way to do that and let people ask for details if they want/need more.

Agreed on all points. With the caveat that something like "This movie has elements of X,Y,Z, so avoid if you're triggered by those things" is, in my mind, wildly different from something like, "Character X is brutally betrayed by Character Y in Scene W--and subplot A was a total bluff!" The latter is plot-centric and liable to derail people's expectations of the storyline, which--for people who don't like spoilers--can completely ruin any suspense that might've been had from a blind viewing. The former can be explained as a common courtesy without revealing anything about the plot whatsoever.

But plot-twists can absolutely being triggering, too.

"Because my desire not to put spoilers out into the world is not stronger than someone else's need for mental peace."
Bless you for having the kindness and decency to set his/her mind at ease. You'd be surprised at the numbers of callous people there are in the world who neither know nor care what life is like for the walking wounded.
BLESS YOU!
:}

Thank you very much for this food for thought. a little loss of surprise is worth it for the comfort of knowing a piece of media is safe is how I function, but I didn't take it to a wider contemplation of how other people view spoilers, for good or ill. I especially appreciate your introduction of another form of privilege into the conversation, as it also puts a different angle/color/entry point on the concept of responsibility and expectations, both as the giver and as the receiver of information.

I have an odd love/hate relationship with spoilers.
On the one hand, I am the sort of person who doesn't mind them. In fact, I often go out of my way to spoil myself...flipping to the end of a book to see what the last few pages look like, Googling spoilers and recaps for shows or movies, and so on. Knowing the end doesn't ruin the story for me, usually. Heck, sometimes it lets me know when I might as well give up while I can. (What's that, everyone dies? Well, shit.) But on occasion, I will avoid any and all talk of a new book or movie just so I go in completely free of expectation or influence.

But I am extremely vigilant about not spoiling things for other people without their consent. Part of that comes from what I believe to be a sacred responsibility of the professional reviewer. Boil the thing down to its essence, deliver a concise summary, deliver an opinion, but for all that is holy, do not spoil the twist or the ending. Do not undermine the writer's efforts by blowing the Big Reveal or Great Surprise out of the water.

But sometimes, it's essential to venture into that forbidden territory. Because if the Great Surprise is something that's so ham-fistedly offensive, so horribly game-breaking, so egregiously awful that it cannot be overlooked... sometimes you have to pull the trigger early, and talk about that element. Sometimes, you have to discuss the element because it overshadows the rest of the book. (Example: I just read a lovely YA that won't be out for months. I want to review it, as it speaks to my interests. But late in the story, one of the secondary characters and primary antagonists shows their true colors, and the revelation absolutely undermines their part of the story in a horrible way. Am I avoiding specifics now? Yeah. Will I avoid them when I review this book? No. I'll attach a spoiler alert, so folks know whether to stay or go, but for the purpose of the review, that part of the story needs addressing.)

But getting back to my original train of thought. While I will happily seek out spoilers, it's on my terms. I don't want to skim Facebook and see DARTH VADER WAS DEAD ALL ALONG AND ROSEBUD WAS THE EMPEROR'S PONY. It's all about respect for each other's preferences. :)

Ironically, the next post after this on my flist was a Big Bang Theory spoiler. I left them a fairly grumpy comment asking them to make use of the LJ-cut.

I am pro-spoiler when it will help someone in the sense of triggers, but otherwise I'm liable to get very annoyed if someone spoils me for something.

Until recently, it hadn't occurred to me that spoilers can sometimes be important.

As someone who had their Harry Potter 6 experience significantly downgraded by a 3-word spoiler in a student's essay (I really wanted the chance to figure out what would happen as I read, but I will never know whether I would have been savvy enough to get where the story was going), I am a big fan of people not posting spoilers without significant warning.

It was only recently that it occurred to me that sharing spoilers with someone might be important. A few months ago, I lent a book to my mother. It features a character with a disability very similar to one that a family friend of ours had. She passed away recently, at least partially due to that disability. My mom hasn't read the book yet. When I lent it to her, this friend was still alive and well. So now, there are parts of the story that might be really hard for her to read, but this character doesn't appear until the latter part of the story, and I didn't want to spoil huge parts of the story for her. So I was torn as to how much to tell her. (I settled for, "there's going to be a difficult part for you to read. I don't want to spoil it, but you'll understand when you get there, and I want you to know that you should keep in mind that it all works out in the end." Which may end up being a spoiler in and of itself. Oops.) But it did get me thinking about when sharing spoilers might be important.

I think that part of what it comes down to is a key point you made: Spoilers should be okay as long as there's *consent*. If someone says, "Can you tell me if X happens," then they have consented to being spoiled in regard to that plot point. If someone says, "you should always warn me if Y appears in a movie," then they have consented to being spoiled. If you know someone has a trigger, and you saw a triggery scene in a movie, then it may be a good idea to say, "listen, I know you have this trigger, and there's this scene that may be triggery. Do you want to hear more about it? It's a spoiler, but I'll tell you if you want to know."

So thanks for getting me thinking about all of that.

I remember starting a book once upon a time, and the introduction, the flipping INTRODUCTION, to the book gave away the entire ending. So someone sat down, wrote out a whole 'this book is about good vs evil, other university-essay things, blah blah, and it ends when a meteor hits the earth and everyone dies', and then someone else decided that was a good way to intro the book and published it. Whhhyyy? :(

I'd argue that trigger warnings are different from spoilers - "Will this happen?" isn't quite the same as "This happens to this character", although trigger warnings are sometimes necessarily more like the latter than the former (pure hypothetical, only one female in the cast, rape trigger warning is either spoilery or has to note that it's a male-on-male rape; equally trigger warnings for fridgeing tend to be more spoilery, but still necessary, than general warnings for the same content).

Basically what I'm saying is, "Yes! I concur - but I wouldn't consider a TW a spoiler, personally."

Yeah, I'm one of the weirdos who likes spoilers, for two reasons. One is, as you mentioned, trigger warnings. My partner and I marathoned Angel, and I got very into it. This is before I was treated for my bipolar, and my manic depression could be affected by things I had strong feelings about -- including media of various types. My partner made some comments about what was coming up, without spoilers, and said -- "No, you don't want to be spoiled, it'll ruin it." I kept pushing, and finally, they told me. And... it's a very, very, VERY good thing they did, because if I had not known about those two particular incidents (things happening to my two favorite characters) I probably would have ended up suicidal. (Thankfully, I am now on medication! And this doesn't really happen as, well, severely. I still have mood swings along with what I'm reading or watching but I don't get nearly to the extent I did before. And it occurs to me, I've never really heard of anyone else having this issue. Hm.) In a sense, that would have been triggery for me; and there is stuff I want to know in advance, like that, so I can make the decision for myself whether I want to watch it or not (or more usually when to watch it.)

Sometimes I don't want spoilers. I've managed, somewhat remarkably, to be unspoiled for BSG, and I have found I like (at least with this series) not knowing what's coming... but I also know that there is enough triggery stuff in there that I have to take anti-anxiety meds before watching and have more on hand. But I love it and still don't want to know what's coming, which is weird for me.

Normally, I like knowing ahead of time. I usually dislike the feeling of "what's gonna happen next" -- which is for most people, a big thing behind consuming media. That feeling? Actually makes me anxious. So I usually search out spoilers ahead of time -- and usually, they just make me want to watch or read it more! I had been planning on seeing Frozen, for example, at some point, but I wasn't feeling especially "okay, must see it now" and was thinking I might wait for video. Then I read a review and the comments had spoilers (warned for!). The spoilers made me want to see it more, because the twists sounded so damn cool, and I wanted to see HOW they did it, and I ended up actually dragging my GF out to see it the very same day. (...which happened to be Sunday at 4pm. I haven't been to a theatre so packed with kids in years. Oops.)

But I realize I'm odd in that, and so I try not to spoil things for other people. Even liking spoilers, though, I want warnings, so I can make the active choice for myself. Almost always, I'll read the spoilers, but sometimes (as in the above BSG example) I don't want them.

I think it's entirely reasonable to not be wondering what's going to happen next—we certainly get enough of that in real life, and not everybody enjoys anticipation. Since so much of what makes a story good is execution, not raw plot elements, you can still enjoy your stories.