Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire
  • Mood: cranky
  • Music: Utada Hikaru, "Simple and Clean."

Characters, criteria, and causation: where the problem lies.

Friday, The Zoe-Trope posted a really interesting piece titled "Real Girls, Fake Girls, Everybody Hates Girls," which I highly recommend that you go and read before you continue with this post. It's both the background material for some of these thoughts, and more importantly, it's a really solid, thoughtful article about the issues that we, communally, are having with female characters right now. She also coined the lovely term "Sarah Jane" as the opposite of "Mary Sue": an ordinary, flawed, perfectly reasonable character who doesn't warp the universe around her.

Meanwhile, the New Statesman has posted an article titled "I Hate Strong Female Characters," taking the position that male characters are allowed to be flawed, complex, and infinitely interesting, while female characters are expected to stop at "strong." Woo! That character is strong! Flawless feminist writing!

Groan.

I've talked before about the concept of "the Mary Sue," and why I think she is both unfairly maligned and non-existent. You can find that post here, which I think officially makes this the post with the most "required background reading" thus far this year. A lot of people have pointed this out recently—it is not an original thought—but I'm going to put it here anyway, because I think it's salient:

1. Mary Sue is the best she is at what she does.
2. Mary Sue has a mysterious and tortured past, and is probably an orphan.
3. Mary Sue is physically attractive.
4. Mary Sue is either rich or somehow never has a problem with money.
5. Mary Sue develops powers to suit the situation, because she always wins, unless she needs to lose for the sake of beautiful angst.
6. Mary Sue doesn't have to follow the rules of the story she's in. Ergo...
7. Batman and Wolverine are both Mary Sues.

(Pointing this out to people who are piously explaining how only female characters can be Mary Sues, because only female characters are ever that unrealistically written, is hysterical. And by "hysterical," I mean "a really good way to get yelled at by enraged nerds who don't want to admit, even a little bit, that their magical dick-lords could be just as much wish-fulfillment as all those violet-eyed sixteen-year-old ensigns flying starships.")

So. Let us begin.

October "Toby" Daye was in many ways my first "real" protagonist. She was complicated, she was sad, she was bruised and refusing to break, and she was not afraid to put her duty ahead of her desire to be liked. She bullied her way through the world she was created to inhabit, looking at every complication that stood in her way and saying "No, you move." After a lifetime spent moving dolls through stories, it was like I finally had a real person to follow and document. I started writing her adventures, and sending them out to people I trusted to read and review. Midway through either the second or the third book—I don't remember anymore—I got a note from one of my proofers saying "You can't have Toby do this, she's always been a little bitchy, but this makes her a total bitch. No one will like her if she does this."

I panicked. I couldn't write a series about an unlikeable character! I'd never get published, no one else would ever meet my imaginary friends, and everything I'd worked for my whole life would be over, all because Toby was unlikeable.

Then I took a deep breath, and wrote back to the proofer requesting that they do a find/replace on the .doc, and plug in the name "Harry Dresden" for every instance of "October Daye." They did, and lo and behold, what had been "bitchy" and "inappropriate" was suddenly "bold" and "assertive." A male character in the same situation, with the same background, taking the same actions, was completely in the right, justified, and draped with glory. He was a hero. Toby? Toby was an unlikeable bitch.

The proofer withdrew the compliant. I have never forgotten it.

Female characters are expected to be perfect without being perfect, a contradiction that is as nonsensical as it is impossible. There's a full list in the article I linked above ("I Hate Strong Female Characters"), but these are the ones that really frustrate me. Female characters have to be:

* Thin and conventionally pretty, but eat only junk food/eat constantly, and never, ever worry about gaining weight;
* Incredibly sexy but unaware of their own sexuality ("You don't know you're beautiful!").
* TOTALLY SURPRISED when a push-up bra or pair of leather pants changes the way people look at them.
* Convinced that every woman around them is a bitch, slut, or whore.

That last one...yeah. See, there's this huge narrative of "I'm not like the other girls" that runs through a lot of these critiques, and it's not "I'm not like..." the way that, say, Harry Potter is not like the other wizards in his year group. No, it's "You Belong With Me"-level "she wears high heels, I wear sneakers" shit, totally denying that the other girls could have anything of value to bring to the conversation. It's like being a member of the Disney Princess collection. You can't let those other princesses steal your spotlight, no! Ignore them, shame them, refuse to make eye contact. Call a girl who wears the same thing you do a skank, it's okay. Call a girl who's had two boyfriends a slut, even as you dance at the center of your own love pentagon. It's all fine, because you're not like those other girls. By creating a single focal point of "not like" that it's okay to care about, you place the rest of the world's female humans in a box labeled "icky." Not-like girls are great. They're strong female characters, they kick ass and take names and eat cheeseburgers and don't give a damn what the world thinks of them. All other girls are gross.

The amount of slut-shaming, fat-shaming, you-name-it-shaming that I see coming from these "strong female characters" is horrifying, because it requires that othering aspect be front and center. Your character must be above reproach, and since everyone knows that women are disgusting, horrifying, alien skin lizards wearing pretty makeup and hair dye to deceive and entrap men, she can't be like them. She can never be like those other girls.

I flip out when I meet a female character who's allowed to have female friends, because it's so damn rare. The upcoming Disney film, Frozen, has sisters in it. Sisters. Who get to be the same age and talk and stuff. I am ecstatic, because even if the movie turns out to be a sack of problematic eels, we got sisters on the goddamn screen, and that's even rarer than friends.

Where does this come from? Well, in part, it comes from the things we surround ourselves with. Books and movies where the Smurfette Principle is in full effect, which means that one woman must stand in for all women, and thus can't have a personality beyond "the girl." Series where you have the one sensible, sympathetic female, and every other female character is there to cause trouble or gasp no oh no panic, steal her man. Series where the female characters are killed off to further male pain, or because the male characters are "easier to write" (a statement that often matches up to an all-male writer's room).

It needs to stop.

Female characters should be people. Flawed, glorious, interesting, enthralling people. Let them dye their hair and pierce their ears without going "wah wah wah I'm so bad at being a girl wait hey look suddenly I've gotten a makeover and I'm gorgeous." Let them have female friends. Let them fuck up. Let them have bad days, and swear, and be snotty, and be people. Stop shoving them into these boxes where anything less than perfect adherence to a set of ticky-boxes means failure. They are better than that. We are better than that.

It's time for everybody's standards to look the same.
Tags: contemplation, cranky blonde is cranky, writing
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the_gneech

August 19 2013, 20:11:17 UTC 3 years ago

Male "Mary Sues" certainly exist; those pedantic on the gender issue call 'em "Gary Stu." Whether Batman or Wolverine qualify largely depends on the writer, but James Bond is totally one.

I do love the term Sarah-Jane, tho! 'cos, y'know, Sarah Jane was/is so awesome. :) (Liz Sladen, RIP. We miss you!)

-The Gneech

capplor

August 20 2013, 02:10:57 UTC 3 years ago

Depends. The movie James Bond is totally Mary Sue. The book JB is pretty angsty.

rowyn

3 years ago

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filkerdave

August 19 2013, 20:13:00 UTC 3 years ago

Female characters should be people. Flawed, glorious, interesting, enthralling people.

A thousand times this! I don't care (in terms of characterization) if the characters are male, female or something in between. I want them to be interesting people that I'd like to spend time with, because when I read, that's what I'm doing. If they have flaws, so what? Everyone I know has flaws. I have more than a few flaws of my own (and after all this time you can probably tick off half a dozen of mine without thinking and most of them will be right ;)). Everyone I know has things that they're good at, things that they're interested in, things that they hate, things that they dislike but do anyway.

seanan_mcguire

August 21 2013, 15:11:49 UTC 3 years ago

Exactly.

the_gneech

August 19 2013, 20:24:32 UTC 3 years ago

Unrelated followup comment...

In Suburban Jungle, whenever Leona was angry or mean, the audience ate it up with a spoon; but on those rare occasions where Tiffany blew up, she got grief for being "bitchy."

I never did understand that; my best guess is that it's a "reader identification" issue. Leona's the gal you love to hate (although I had more than a few would-be redeemers mooning over her), while Tiffany's supposed to be the "good example," I guess.

-The Gneech

lilairen

August 19 2013, 22:05:30 UTC 3 years ago

*has brief moment of "Whoa, someone who's heard of Suburban Jungle?"*
*then checks the username attached to the comment*

;)

the_gneech

3 years ago

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capplor

3 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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mariadkins

3 years ago

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anghara

August 19 2013, 20:28:50 UTC 3 years ago

I love you so very very much for this. it's what I've been saying to people constantly and all along - I don't write "strong female protagonists". I write *people*. And lo and behold, write a woman as a person and she comes over as "strong". Funny how that works, isn't it?...

seanan_mcguire

August 21 2013, 15:12:59 UTC 3 years ago

It's a miracle!

Go read something good. I'll show you where.

livejournal

August 19 2013, 20:30:57 UTC 3 years ago

User anghara referenced to your post from Go read something good. I'll show you where. saying: [...] Y'all should go read this [...]

sartorias

August 19 2013, 20:38:44 UTC 3 years ago

Applauding many of the thoughts here, while observing that I think Mary Sue (or Marty Stu) is what happens when the author tells us that the character is all-important, center of the universe, but either doesn't show us, or surrounds these Heroic figures with one-dimensional characters whose only reason for existing is to talk about Mary or Marty, to fall in love with them or make them the centerpiece of their hatred, to stand around in groups laughing at their every statement that the reader is supposed to take as wit, or admiring them.

It's also interesting that not everybody agrees on what characters are Marys or Martys!

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seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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sartorias

3 years ago

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heavensgardener

August 19 2013, 20:40:14 UTC 3 years ago

Ten billion times yes to everything in this post.

seanan_mcguire

August 21 2013, 15:13:37 UTC 3 years ago

<3

spectralbovine

August 19 2013, 20:41:21 UTC 3 years ago

Intellectually and consciously, I know everything in this post makes sense.

Subconsciously, hoo boy, have I ever been conditioned and brainwashed and sometimes I find myself having those "Geez, what a bitch" moments and then I hate myself.

kittycat22

August 19 2013, 22:33:15 UTC 3 years ago

Ditto. It's so frustrating when I catch myself... even more frustrating when I don't. :-/

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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jess_faraday

August 19 2013, 21:07:36 UTC 3 years ago

>
Then I took a deep breath, and wrote back to the proofer requesting that they do a find/replace on the .doc, and plug in the name "Harry Dresden" for every instance of "October Daye." They did, and lo and behold, what had been "bitchy" and "inappropriate" was suddenly "bold" and "assertive." A male character in the same situation, with the same background, taking the same actions, was completely in the right, justified, and draped with glory. He was a hero. Toby? Toby was an unlikeable bitch.

HOLY SH*T. That's amazing. Mind...blown.

jenfullmoon

August 20 2013, 11:55:24 UTC 3 years ago

Seconded.

I seriously wonder what the hell women did to be so cosmically, universally hated no matter what, everywhere. Why is this always the case? What did we do?

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jenfullmoon

3 years ago

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ontogenesis

3 years ago

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vixyish

3 years ago

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chaos_wrangler

3 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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chordatesrock

August 19 2013, 21:24:16 UTC 3 years ago

I find characters annoying when the author puts them on a pedestal and protects them unfairly, or when they're held up as being so much better than everyone else (especially their clearly-inferior opponents). That's not quite the same thing as being overly perfect; it's closer to (but not identical to) warping existing universe-rules to make a character more awesome, and possibly related to wish-fulfillment.

Oddly, though, the examples that jump most readily to mind are male characters written by female authors. That could just be because there are more idealized male characters and I read more female authors, but now it has me curious.

seanan_mcguire

August 21 2013, 18:15:28 UTC 3 years ago

Yes: that is annoying. But "annoying" and "no characters with this attribute (in this case, "female") should be allowed to ever taint our precious narrative," which I see far too often.

greyduck

August 19 2013, 21:43:41 UTC 3 years ago

And this is why the prospect of taking up writing again absolutely terrifies me. I need good (not necessarily "Strong (tm))" female characters, because DUH, but I want to make sure I don't screw it up.

It's one of those things for which the advice reads simply but the execution may be beyond my skills. We'll see...

evieeros

August 20 2013, 19:53:32 UTC 3 years ago

First off, I have HORRIBLE anxiety so I feel your feels. I hope you won't find the following advice insulting and please ignore it if does not apply!

Editing. Editing is your friend. :) Seriously if you're terrified of writing you won't write and the world will NEVER see your wonderful worlds/characters/stories. Perhaps you might try something small to get back into it? A timed writing exercise or prompt based or something. Tell yourself, "This is for practice and fun, not for show. No one has to see this but me." And if you read it over and it's dreadful and the characters are awful erase the document or throw it away and try again later.

Also I highly recommend Ralph Keyes The Courage to Write. One of the things he address in his book is how SCARY writing is and how many classic writers that we hold up as 'examples of the genre' or 'literary greats' were terrified the entire time they were writing! He also gives tips and tricks that other writers have used to sort of sneak up on themselves and write before the Eek! part of the brain takes over.

Good luck!

greyduck

3 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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shadefell

August 19 2013, 21:48:00 UTC 3 years ago

I panicked. I couldn't write a series about an unlikeable character! I'd never get published, no one else would ever meet my imaginary friends, and everything I'd worked for my whole life would be over, all because Toby was unlikeable.

And yet Lev Grossman writes books with unlikeable male protagonists and does very well for himself.

I won a Sarah Dessen book in a give away. She's an author I never would have picked up on my own as she writes in a genre I don't normally dabble in. And yet! Her book had something utterly amazing: two young women meeting and becoming very good, very close, supportive friends who encourage and nurture each other. What! WHAT! I was absolutely floored.

seanan_mcguire

August 21 2013, 20:00:26 UTC 3 years ago

But Lev identifies male, and that changes the rules for him. I'm going to need to become a much bigger name before they change the rules for me.

shadefell

3 years ago

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ladymurmur

August 19 2013, 22:14:26 UTC 3 years ago

Attended a Q&A session with David Weber at a convention years ago. He said that a very frequent question he fielded was "How do you write such strong female characters?" which always baffled him. Because he doesn't ever try to write "strong female characters". He writes characters. Whether they're male, female, treecat, whatever! After the Q&A there was one of those everyone-lingers-'cause-the-conversation-just-isn't-over-yet sessions that dwelt for quite a while on what "strength of character" means. I've had flashbacks to that conversation every time this subject comes up. Wish I'd taken notes.

capplor

August 20 2013, 02:15:52 UTC 3 years ago

Weber? If Honor Harrington isn't totally a wish-fulfillment character I don't know who is. (Looks decades younger than she is, needs chocolate to keep her weight up and has an intelligent telepathic cat). Yea, I kind of like it, and the polititcal interplay leading to interstellar wars & the effect of the technology can all be fascinating, but HH ought to be cross referenced to Mary Sue. Or is it that one presumes she isn't Weber's wish fulfillment?

dornbeast

3 years ago

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capplor

3 years ago

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droewyn

3 years ago

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dornbeast

3 years ago

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beckyh2112

3 years ago

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dornbeast

3 years ago

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capplor

3 years ago

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penguineggs

3 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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naamah_darling

August 19 2013, 22:25:47 UTC 3 years ago

Gods, you're amazing. I am also floored on the search and replace Dresden thing.

You're one of the people I point to when I want to point to people doing it right, since you've never pissed me off with your treatment of any character, and some of your characters have made me recalibrate my standards for awesomeness in fiction. Your outspokenness on this issue helps me analyze my own writing as well, and I believe my characterization has improved as a result. Mostly by virtue of these discussions making me LESS AFRAID to write characters like I want to write them.

It occurred to me this morning that "Mary Sue" is a term like "politically correct". It's used to refer to whatever the speaker personally dislikes or is pissed off at or disapproves of. I've seen them both used to apply to such a broad spectrum of characters/behaviors that if I were to make some sort of diagram or chart or list citing every use of those words I've read, and giving examples, they would by now encompass their own opposites. And I hate seeing either of those terms used. Hate it. Because it basically means "I have stopped THINKING and started COMPLAINING." Both are sloppy terms, essentially meaningless, and all they do is provoke. They are annoying. We need to stop using them.

mariadkins

August 20 2013, 21:38:39 UTC 3 years ago

I am also floored on the search and replace Dresden thing.

That totally got me, too. Incredible.

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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kittycat22

August 19 2013, 22:36:29 UTC 3 years ago

The Dresden test you referenced is excellent. I love the general practice of "replace a female with a male and then see if it is sexist" which is very oversimplified, but I'm thinking of like advertisements and commercials and such, too. Males in poses/outfits they make women do... etcetcetc.

I love Dresden, and will most certainly be using this specific litmus test in the future when I catch myself in "Bitch!" language/judgment....

wendyzski

August 20 2013, 18:37:20 UTC 3 years ago

"Males in poses/outfits they make women do"

Are you familiar with Jim Hines's Posing Project?
http://www.jimchines.com/cover-posing/

He started thinking the cover image on one of his own books, and decided to try and replicate it - nearly throwing out his back in the process. This led to a hilarious series of images (mostly raising money for charity - because "I'd pay 5 bucks to see him try that!" can be used for good), that only escalated and I believe culminated in a fairly impressive re-do of the cover of "Young Flandry" featuring Mary Robinett Koval fully dressed with her Hugo award, surrounded by a quartet of male SF authors (Rothfuss, Scalzi, Hines, and Stross) en dishabille. Yeah.

kitrona

3 years ago

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kateyule

3 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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anne_d

August 19 2013, 22:45:49 UTC 3 years ago

Then I took a deep breath, and wrote back to the proofer requesting that they do a find/replace on the .doc, and plug in the name "Harry Dresden" for every instance of "October Daye." They did, and lo and behold, what had been "bitchy" and "inappropriate" was suddenly "bold" and "assertive." A male character in the same situation, with the same background, taking the same actions, was completely in the right, justified, and draped with glory. He was a hero. Toby? Toby was an unlikeable bitch.

Oh, fer...

I haven't read any of the Harry Dresden books, but Toby's always reminded me of Kinsey Millhone. And Kinsey Millhone is my favorite not-fae PI character of them all, so Toby is in good company.

In other words, I like your imaginary friends, please keep telling me stories about them. *makes big pleading eyes at the High Priestess of Enthralling Tales With Believable Characters*

seanan_mcguire

August 21 2013, 20:01:49 UTC 3 years ago

I never said I was going to stop.

thedragonweaver

3 years ago

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serge_lj

August 19 2013, 22:46:58 UTC 3 years ago

Toby unlikeable?
I *like* Toby.
A lot.
When she gives her friendship, it's not a Facebook kind of friendship.

themysteriousg

August 20 2013, 02:55:06 UTC 3 years ago

Yes, this!

mariadkins

3 years ago

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serge_lj

3 years ago

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aliciaaudrey

August 19 2013, 23:27:44 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you for those links and your own commentary. They were thought provoking, and "how we view females in media" is something I'm always very interested in.

seanan_mcguire

August 22 2013, 16:39:54 UTC 3 years ago

You are very welcome.

ext_2121231

August 19 2013, 23:29:43 UTC 3 years ago

I agree with this entire post but this line, "It's all fine, because you're not like those other girls." is completely spot-on. I've never understood the "not like those other girls". How misogynistic and self-centered! And it's not uncommon in real life.

seanan_mcguire

August 22 2013, 16:40:05 UTC 3 years ago

I know. It disturbs.

traveller42

August 19 2013, 23:41:57 UTC 3 years ago

My wife pointed out several of these issues with the treatment of Honor Harrington. The one that sticks the most is she gets laid the first time she wears makeup.

My wife also used the "replace her with a male and does this still make sense" approach.

Another thanks for the Sarah Jane term.

seanan_mcguire

August 22 2013, 16:40:34 UTC 3 years ago

Makeup is not a magic portal to sex! Ugh.

You're quite welcome.

dragoness_e

3 years ago

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theunshaven

August 20 2013, 02:09:05 UTC 3 years ago

We've been watching the show Saving Grace recently, and although the show was hardly unproblematic and the ending was forced/poor due to cancellation, some of the rest of it was very well grounded in the friendship between Grace and Rhetta. They've known each other forever, they're best friends (in that they sometimes fight but eventually There is Communication, and some things they don't need to communicate about because they have practice).

It's a very rare thing to see.

Also rare to see two adult women who are allowed to let their hair down and act like goddamn eight-year-olds together when they feel like it.

idancewithlife

August 20 2013, 07:41:34 UTC 3 years ago

I adore Saving Grace. One of the best shows ever on TV. And, yes--now that you mention it--it was in part because of the relationship between Rhetta and Grace. But there were other solid platonic (and family) relationships of many kinds in this show as well. The people in the show felt *real* to me (which is, of course what Seanan is talking about here). After considering for a while I decided I liked the ending. No spoilers here, but much of the show was unexpected, and the ending carried on that theme in spades.

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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capplor

August 20 2013, 02:18:27 UTC 3 years ago

I was kind of wondering how Helen Narbon (Narbonic web comic) fits into this. She has a female protoge, a distinctly not-model figure, and eventually a younger lover. Or is she allowed to be all that because she admits to being evil and insane up front?

beckyh2112

August 20 2013, 20:26:02 UTC 3 years ago

Why does she have to be "allowed" to be that?

mariadkins

3 years ago

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beckyh2112

3 years ago

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mariadkins

3 years ago

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beckyh2112

3 years ago

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mariadkins

3 years ago

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beckyh2112

3 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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themysteriousg

August 20 2013, 03:03:00 UTC 3 years ago

My first thought was "who dared to call Toby a Sara-Jane?" Because I believe she is pretty perfect in many, many ways.

Second, I love you because all of your books have people with friends - real ones - and enemies and betrayal and trust and complications that aren't pretty but feel natural. It's probably what I like best about your writing no matter which name you write under.

I do wish more writers realized how real women, tough women, stupid women, young and old, usually have at least one if not a dozen friends that they need in whatever capacity. S is my soul. T is my foil. M is my mama-buddy. T2 is the other one. LBB keeps me young. They are all my "bffs' and I need each one. They don't all like each other. They sometimes will say why are you friends with this one or that one but at the end of the day they are my BFFs because they each know me well enough to know that I am multifaceted and need more than one thing. More than one friend. Real people are like that. Real people are complicated.

I wish they (and we when we fall for it) didn't push the divide and conquer agenda. The not-like girl has to go. I'm so glad you've articulated another thing for me so I can navigate my baby girl. This is actually going to apply nicely to entering second grade next week. The cliques are on the horizon and they are just another division of not-like. If I can work to teach her now how to avoid it there's much more hope at 13-14.

Yay you with helping with the parenting skills.

sylviamcivers

August 21 2013, 21:09:04 UTC 3 years ago

May I direct you to Lois McMaster Bujold's 4 book Sharing Knife series, where the protagonist Fawn makes friends absolutely everywhere except the enemy camp. Except when bad-guys are trying to kill her, but bad-guys aren't in the book to make friends ;)

Nearly penniless in a hotel? In two days she's friends wit the cook, the laundress, the glass maker, the paper maker, everyone. In her hostile in-laws' town? Friends with the family's semi-outcasts. On the river? the list is too long.

Enemy camp - almost no one is willing to talk to her. Two days on the road past the enemy camp - her husband is astonished how happy she suddenly is, because there are friendly people.

themysteriousg

3 years ago

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dragoness_e

3 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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thetamarisktree

August 20 2013, 03:09:34 UTC 3 years ago

This reminds me of a conversation a writer friend and I were having, about how women are expected to be passive in fiction still. A Mary-Sue becomes a Mary-Sue when she is active. The Lady of Shalott? Queen Guinevere? Acceptable.

Morgana? Mary-Sue.

As a result, we strive to write women who are not just tools or background scenery. As a result, we write less men in the over-all cast. It's an interesting experiment so far.

seanan_mcguire

August 22 2013, 16:42:12 UTC 3 years ago

I'm glad your experiment is going well!

vettecat

August 20 2013, 03:24:37 UTC 3 years ago

Absolutely yes.

seanan_mcguire

August 22 2013, 16:42:21 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you.
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