Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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You can check my credentials if I can check yours.

So it's been a little more than a week since my glorious return from the San Diego International Comic Convention, where I saw cool things, met cool people, and learned that "Hell" is another word for "being on the SDCC exhibit floor in a wheelchair." I also contracted a horrific cold, and have been fighting my way back to the semblance of health, which is why my relative radio silence on the subject. But that's neither here nor there: that's just framework and excuses. Here's what happened.

Leading up to SDCC, basically every woman I talked to expressed the fear of being "cred checked" at least once. The fake geek girl may not be a real thing, but her shadow is long, and since people started claiming to have seen her, the rest of us have been accused of being her with increasing frequency. She is the geek urban legend, the prowling, predatory female who's just there to take up precious space/time/swag with her girly girlish girliness, and she's like The Thing From Outer Space—a creature with no face and every face, AT THE SAME TIME.

I attended SDCC and similar shows for years before anyone said "Gasp! Some of these geek girls ARE TOTALLY FAKE!" and I started getting my geek credentials checked. Since that began, I have been forced to defend my knowledge of horror movies, the X-Men, zombie literature, the Resident Evil franchise, Doctor Who, and My Little Pony.

Let's pause a moment and just think about that. Men—adult men—have asked me to defend my knowledge of and right to be a fan of My Little motherfucking Pony. My first fandom, the fandom that is arguably responsible for getting me into epic fantasy (not kidding), the franchise that I have publicly credited with teaching me how to plot long-term. A franchise that was, at least originally, aimed exclusively at little girls who enjoyed ponies and hair-play. I think that all fandoms should be for everyone, and I love that My Little Pony has finally found a male audience, but are you kidding here? Are you seriously telling me that the second men discover something I have loved since I was four years old, I suddenly have to pass trivia exams to keep considering myself a fan? Because if that's the way things are going, I want to hear the Sea Pony song right fucking now.

Ahem.

Most of the female fans I know have expressed concern about this credential checking, in part because who the fuck wants to have to take a quiz when you're standing in line waiting to get Chris Claremont's autograph? I mean, really. And there's always the possibility that you'll fail the exam, and a) many of us have deep-seated test anxiety, courtesy of the American school system, and b) no one likes being bullied. Telling me I'm not a real geek because I can't name the members of the Justice League (spoiler: I can't, I don't read DC) is bullying. It's offensive and it's upsetting and it leaves me feeling like a faker, even when I'm not. Even when I'm demonstratively not.

And this "you're a fake, you have no right to be here" routine is almost universally directed at women. I see these women in these incredible costumes that took hours to make and will cause chafing and shin splits and lots of other discomforts, and then I see them getting mocked for being "fake" by men in jeans and hero logo T-shirts. Captain America probably doesn't like you making fun of women, good sir. Just saying.

Then, this year, I saw something wonderful. I was crossing the floor with Amy when we encountered a tall blonde dressed as Emma Frost. I will always stop and admire a good Emma—it's in my genes—so we paused to study her costume and tell her how amazing she looked. She saw the name on my badge and lit up.

"I was hoping to run into you!" she said. "I remembered that you love Emma!"

One of my fans dressed as Emma Frost and she did it for me.

I have never felt so much like a rock star.

We stayed and chatted with her—because let's face it, you dress up as Emma Frost to make me happy, you have damn well earned some chatting with—and she confessed that she had been cred checked not long before. "I said Emma was both the White Queen and the Black Queen," she said. "Was that right?" I started explaining the Dark X-Men. While we were doing that, a man with a camera came up and started taking her picture without asking permission. She stopped talking to us, turned her body slightly away from him, held up her hand, and said, "You can't take my picture unless you can tell me who I am."

She was dressed as a very iconic Emma: all in white, with the half-cape connected to a semi-corset top, white boots, and a white "X" logo on her belt. She had small snowflakes on her collarbones, representing Emma's transformation. She had the white choker. She had the blue lipstick. Basically, if you have any familiarity with Marvel, you would recognize her, and since that version of Emma has been on literally hundreds of comic book covers in the past five years, even most DC readers should have recognized her.

"Storm?" guessed the man.

All three of us laughed, but uncomfortably, like we were discovering a terrible secret. And while Amy and I stood there, this happened four more times: the unsolicited pictures, the refusal, the incorrect guess. Only three of the men actually stopped taking pictures when told to.

As women, we are afraid of being unmasked as somehow "not geeky enough." Meanwhile, these men, who were clearly just trying to take pictures of a scantily clad woman, not pictures of an awesome costume, can't identify one of the most iconic figures from one of the largest publishers.

I've been saying for a while that the "fake geek girl" thing was a form of harassment: a way of making sure that women in fandom don't "forget their place." But this, more than anything, drove home to me just how big of a double standard it is. As women, we're expected to know enough to "earn our spot," but not so much that we seem like know-it-alls; we're supposed to add attractive eye candy to the proceedings, but shouldn't expect men to stop taking our pictures when asked; we're supposed to worry about not seeming geeky enough, while never worrying whether the men around us could pass those same tests. The mere fact of their maleness is sufficient.

There was something beautiful about seeing the fake geek girl check flipped back in the other direction, but there was also something profoundly sad about it, because it illustrated just how deep this divide is growing. We're all geeks. We need to have respect for each other, in all ways—no taking pictures without asking, no shouting "Emma!" at a cosplayer and then saying "See? I told you she knew who she was dressed as" when she turns around. Just no.

It needs to stop.

(And if you were that Emma, drop me a line, hey? I never did get your name, and you were awesome.)
Tags: comic books, contemplation, geekiness, post-con
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Captain America probably doesn't like you making fun of women, good sir. Just saying.

YOU ROCK.

Also, somewhere on the internet, I remember someone getting a little defensive when I complained that some girls pretending to be geeks to get attention, and that bothered me. Never going to complain about that again. Also, whoever it was that tried to point out how I sounded, thank you. Have a cookie!

Also, I really wish there weren't jerk guys that seem to think it their right to take pictures of a woman without her permission.
Thank you for being here.
This reminds me of my favorite personal experience of how women are overlooked in fandom.
I was on the train with my then boyfriend, also a geek, and he noticed another guy wearing a shirt with the Superman insignia from the Red Son Elseworld. Then-boyfriend struck up a conversation with the guy and they geeked out over it while I listened and nodded quietly (ex was a bigger talker than I am, which actually is impressive because I am loud and have a tendency to ramble, but he had less social anxiety than I do talking to strangers).

Then the guy in the Red Son shirt turns to me and says something like, "I'm sorry I'm monopolizing your boyfriend, we're just geeking out over this awesome comic."

To which I quietly responded, "I know, I introduced him to it."

gabyrippling

3 years ago

For some reason, I'm reminded of the scene in My Cousin Vinny, where Marisa Tomei's character is grilled about her knowledge of cars. She's a hot chick, so *obviously* she couldn't know the first thing about cars. That's a *boy* thing.

I don't do cons myself, mostly due to social anxiety, but I hate the idea of being cred checked. I don't know everything about any of my fandoms because I have too many. I can tell you what the first line in Star Wars is, but I've never seen Wrath of Khan. Dr. Who sent me screaming out of the room as a kid, so I've never managed to watch it. I play D&D, but only since college. Does that make me less of a geek?
Actually, in My Cousin Vinny, the attorney is conducting a proper voir dire of an expert witness (which is a procedural necessity that legal movies/shows otherwise NEVER show, annoyingly), but I agree with the basis of your point.

meranthi

3 years ago

gabyrippling

3 years ago

meranthi

3 years ago

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

User kelsiarei referenced to your post from Actually, I kind of missed you saying: [...] head in the sand is. Also I think you should read what has to say on Captain America's behalf [...]
User droewyn referenced to your post from No title saying: [...] song. I watched the crap out of that TV special, and I can still sing it from memory! Reply [...]
As a con attendee for over a decade, I have had this happen to me a multiple occassions. It seems to me that to some if you do not broadcast what you enjoy or know, then you do not have a genuine joy of a genre or interest. I started attending shows young and solo which seemed to confound the issue for a certain sect of other attendees even more.

This year's SDCC was the first time I did cosplay. I was not a particular character or genre as I could not narrow my choices in time for the show. I would say I was a blend of steampunk and western. I love both, so I was happy with how everything turned out. The picture taking, especially without permission was a new concept for me. However, the most annoying situation came with from the man trying to hit on me and question my knowledge or joy at the same time. Yes I know who Mae West is and no she did not need a man. That is what made the Mae West "persona" so strong, popular, and unusual during her time.

Check my fangirl credentials if you must, but don't be a creep while doing it.
Check my fangirl credentials if you must, but don't be a creep while doing it.

This should be a T-shirt.
I really struggle to understand the whole "fake geek girls" thing. Most of my friends are geeks. Well, most of my really really good friends are geeks, anyway, the rest are just people I vaguely know. And I've never bothered checking the precise figures, but I suspect about 50% are girls/women/generally female. Including my wife, who's an utter geek which is one of the reasons I fell in love with her in the first place.

Thanks for this post.
Welcome.
If being a "geek" means having to know comic books, I'd fail.
I love the idea of comic books. I want to read comics and graphic novels. But I have trouble simultaneously processing information from both text and images, and trouble switching back and forth, and so I really can't read them. The only ones I can read are ones that are following a novel series (Dresden Files, Anita Blake) or are being novelized (Girl Genius).

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

User sandpanther referenced to your post from Geek Girl Cred Check saying: [...] I was interested to read Seanan McGuire's post about checking if geek girls are "real" [...]
Way back in the dim distant past of 1982 (possibly before you were born) I bought my first computer, I loved my computer so I set about learning everything about it that I could, including programing in BASIC, I didn't write very complicated things, but I did write a few nifty tools and such.

I hung around the store that sold the computers and through talking to the guys there, they knew that in comparison to them I was a god damned computer genius when it came to getting the most out of the whopping 32k of RAM (grin) or speeding up the loading times of the tapes (or even making sure they worked once they had loaded).

The amount of times I had to 'prove' myself to people (sadly all males) about why I was hanging around a computer store, why the sales staff asked ME questions/recommendations about games and just the general implication that I shouldn't have been there in the first place.

It got worse when I sold that computer and bought another much more popular brand, I did the same thing, learned how/why it worked, how to make it go faster/better, which peripherals worked best.

Then my favourite bookstore decided to sell that brand of computers and opened up a whole floor dedicated to it, I was in heaven, books on one floor computers on another, once again it didn't take the sales people long to realise that i knew my stuff and before I knew it, I was being asked to test new games, new addons, new peripherals and to give my opinions, and a lot of the time they ended up stocking the stuff I recommended.

I lost count of the number of times I was cred checked by others, once again all males, how could YOU know that, why should I listen to YOU, what do YOU know. On a few occasions when I was playing a game, testing it out I was physically manhandled away from the computer because "girls shouldn't be playing games".

Don't even get me started on what happened when I decided that I wanted to run my own BBS (Bulletin Board System)...


Ugh.
Wow, that's depressing. Sadly, not entirely unexpected.

Sadly, yeah.
If there's one thing I've always hated about fandom, it's got to be the "credential checking" that goes on.
I long ago grew weary of fan-idiots expecting me to learn Klingon or be able to tell at a glance which duty uniforms come from which incarnation of StarTrek!
:(
This. So much.

And the sad thing is that this isn't just a problem of geek culture or geek gatherings. It's our society at large. Every single time a woman shows interest or knowledge in a predominantly male field, she's subjected to rude comments, she is ignored and her knowledge is written off as non-existent, incomplete or just plain wrong. And it happens EVERYWHERE.
It does!

It makes me furious.
IMHO, it sounds like the guys doing the checking feel threatend by having a woman in their area of interest. Then again, they might do that to other guys - ie hazing.

Personally, I think it's stupid. I think it's nice to have people interested in things I like and like to encourage people to stick around in my hobbies.
I think it's stupid, too.
A moment of disillusionment for me was when I heard an interview with Jerry O'Connell in which he made it quite clear he wasn't a geek and was only doing a job. (I believe this was Sliders-era, but I knew him from My Secret Identity.) It was quite a contrast to having seen Wil Wheaton in person as a teenager (both him and me) and he clearly /was/ really into it. He was working for Flying Toaster (I think? CGI company) in addition to being a Trek geek in his own right. Until O'Connell, I guess I just didn't understand how you could be on a science fiction show without being into it!

Whether he still considers himself not a geek, I don't know. It might've been young male posturing at the time and now that geeks are cool, he'll own it. I don't know. But man, he was really good in that Munsters remake. Crazy good.

But it comes down to, some people are at Comic Con because of their JOB and they're not science fiction /creators/, they're actors, or they're models, or they're PR people, or they're members of the press, or they're security, or whatever. It's just a shame there's not gender parity on Booth Babes. In any case, that doesn't make /them/ fake geeks either. They're not claiming to be geeks. They're in your con space for other reasons. And I know, I know, some of them are even on stage! It's less the clear division of 'hotel staff/people here for a wedding/ everyone here for the con' that other cons have.

I think if people realize that to start, then it'll be a little harder to make the weird illogical leap to 'all the womenfolk here are fake'.

And sorry, fellas, but if some of the girls are only there to see Twilight actors, that doesn't make them fake geeks either.
Twilight is a fandom, same as any other. You don't gotta like it; it's not here for you. (Generic you, not you-OP.)
Shoo be do, shoo shoo be do
Call upon the sea ponies when you're in di, in distress
Call upon the sea ponies, send an S, O, S, O, S!

Beautiful post. :)

We have some cross over in our friends (and fans of your work) but I actually found this through a stranger posting it over at the Pigtail Pals community on FB. So word is spreading. :)
Awesome!
You were there in a wheelchair? Horrors! I hope your feet and upper respiratory tract are both feeling much better now.

We're all geeks. We need to have respect for each other, in all ways—no taking pictures without asking, no shouting "Emma!" at a cosplayer and then saying "See? I told you she knew who she was dressed as" when she turns around. Just no.

Exactly.
I was, and it sucked, but I am recovering.
There's only one con I never miss, which is the UK Discworld convention. Nobody ever did the "Geek Cred" thing there within earshot unless they were in a quiz item. So I've thankfully never experienced this phenomenon first hand. But still, if anyone ever tried, I think the only correct response is as follows:

1. Blank stare.
2. "The fuck do you think you are?"
3. "See this badge? It's got my name on it and [name of con]."
4. "Go fuck yourself."

Keep in mind, this dork is keeping you from talking to interesting people. Don't waste time or emotion on this creature. Hey look! It's [celebrity]!
Good approach.
User erinwrites referenced to your post from On fake geek girls and "credentials" saying: [...] So, Seanan wrote this post [...]
See, I wish I could go to cons and maybe get, I don't know, deeper into things I'm just dipping my toes into, while sharing the squee about the things I know well. But ADD (yay for inevitable overstimulation!) and social anxiety and intense dislike of crowds makes me not want to, plus the fact that I just don't have a lot of cope when it comes to being grilled or questioned or judged on what I do or don't enjoy. I don't want to put myself in a position where I feel like I have to justify my likes, dislikes, or hell, my very presence. I just don't handle that shit well.

Blerg. :-/
Blerg is right.
Oh sweet mary Jesus.

I had to pause and 'close' the article because the stupid you encountered was making my head hurt TOO much.

For fuck's sake, the comic books these people read TEACH YOU HOW TO TREAT WOMEN!

What the hell.

Sure, some of the the women may be dressed in ways not possible by laws of phyics...but the treating is logical.
Seriously.
While I could comment on any of the very interesting (and somewhat distressing) points you raised, it's hella late/early, so I'm just going to thank you for getting the creepy-ass song I had stuck in my head replaced with the Sea Ponies song (which I have also known since I was four. MLP FTW!). Now I can sleep.
Yay sleep!
Heh, my sister works at a comic book shop. She's had a lot of... interesting? encounters. One of her favorites to tell (accompanied with an eye roll) is about a guy who came in every week like clockwork and while checking out, would ask her what comics she was reading, then would proceed to belittle whatever she mentioned (and my sister is VERY widely read in comics, and very thoughtful and intelligent in discussing them)

So finally one week he comes in and asks his traditional question and her, tired of justifying her fannishnessm (and mind you, sitting behind the counter leafing through a comic book *as they're talking*) finally responds, "Oh, I don't read comics." the smug self-satisfaction of finally being right made me mad, and I didn't even see it, I just heard it from her.

The weirdness of this two-pronged attack on geek women is just awful - you have to know enough to pass the test of you're not a "real geek" but on the other hand, no matter how much you know it's probably not enough for some subsets of the self-appointed gatekeepers.
Ugh.
I kind of really love you for this. I don't go to cons because I can't afford it but my mama didn't raise a fool and she sure didn't raise me to tolerate them either. It sounds like Emma doesn't either. I can only hope that if I'm ever in the same situation as Emma that I act with the same grace and confidence she showed.
I hope we all do.
I must admit that I was once sorely tempted to cred check (not that I'd heard the phrase before today)...

Back when the LotR movies were coming out... As someone who grew up having Tolkien read to me, who read the trilogy as a child and the Silmarillion as a teenager... and living in New Zealand I was so sick of the media hype by the time the third movie came out. I was living in Wellington (where the premier was) at the time and it was so very very tempting to go up to some of the people lining the red carpet / parade route to see if they had ever read any of the books or were just there to see movie stars.

I was good, kept my mouth shut and took my grocery shopping home. Gah.
Being tempted is fine; I am proud of you for resisting temptation.

shenya

3 years ago

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