Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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More marginalization of women in media.

I just got home from an afternoon showing of Now You See Me, chosen both because I wanted to see the movie, and because it's a swelteringly hot June day here in Northern California; we were hiding from the sun. A fun little caper movie about magicians robbing banks seemed like just the way to go. Plus, air conditioning.

I got half of what I wanted: I got air conditioning. I will be as spoiler-free as I can, but I am unhappy.

The setup of the movie is thus: four magicians, all of whom are awesome in their solo acts, are Recruited To Do Something. This isn't a spoiler; it's the premise, which leads to them teaming up and being awesome and also robbing banks and shit (all in the trailers). We have a mentalist, a classic slight-of-hand trickster, an escape artist, and a pickpocket/misdirectionist. As they start to do their shit, they are pursued by an FBI agent, an Interpol agent, a professional debunker, and a dude who got robbed.

Of the characters listed above, two are female. They never speak to each other. No, never. No, not even then. There are two secondary female characters, who also never speak to each other (one is there purely to be a pretty status symbol). The female magician is the only one who never gets an awesome moment where her field of magic, her specialization is both key to the plan and saves the day. Literally the first thing one of the other magicians says to her is "you're pretty."

YOU'RE PRETTY.

Now here's the thing: while I disagree that some roles are particularly "gendered," I can accept that right now, in our current media climate, you will want at least 75% of your romances to be between characters of opposite genders. I don't like it, but I will roll with it. And that being said, there was not a single fucking character in this movie who needed to be male. Make the smug team leader a girl, and make the ex-girlfriend an ex-boyfriend! Make the action character a girl (I basically spent every moment one of the magicians was on screen wishing he would turn into Beth Reisgraf). Make more than one important member of your team a fucking female.

And we now stand, again, at the edge of one of my biggest complaints about media today: a team with three men and one women wasn't seen as imbalanced, but the opposite team would have been. It's very possible that even a two-and-two team would have been seen as dominated by women. I am not calling for gender equality in every movie. I saw The Fast and the Furious 6 earlier this month; it was male-dominated, and it was fantastic. Not without its issues—what is?—but well-balanced, casting-wise, with multiple interesting, nuanced female characters who were allowed to interact.

When I go on these "why was so-and-so a guy" rants, someone always says "would you have this complaint if the cast were exactly gender reversed?", and I always say no. I still say no. Because there are so many male-dominated action movies and caper flicks and summer blockbusters that adding a few female-dominated examples would not be "reverse discrimination," it would be balancing the backlog. What I really want is gender neutrality. I want a team of two girls and two guys robbing banks with slight-of-hand and being awesome, rather than another movie that reduces me to a prize or a non-entity.

It's exhausting being this unhappy all the time.

The media won't let me stop.
Tags: contemplation, cranky blonde is cranky, media addict
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Crap. I was kind of interested in seeing this...not anymore.

I'll be linking to this on [community profile] bechdel_test.
It failed the test SO FUCKING HARD.

catnip13

4 years ago

kshandra

4 years ago

I love you. Did you catch the trans hate too?
I was being distracted by the lack of women and people of any color other than "Hollywood Caucasian." What'd I miss?

alumiere

4 years ago

Because there are so many male-dominated action movies and caper flicks and summer blockbusters that adding a few female-dominated examples would not be "reverse discrimination," it would be balancing the backlog.

Yes, this. In my ideal world, there would still be male-male buddy movies, but there'd also be male-female* and female-female buddy movies (and since this is my idea world, movies with non-gender-binary characters). Movies about teams of competent people would have varying gender distributions that would average to parity and show as many male-dominated teams as female-dominated, and most single-sex teams would have a story reason. There would also be female team leaders and female heavy-hitters and male support characters and love interests and so on.

* That are not romances. I have some favorite 'couple solve crime' stories, but I also want buddy films about friends who work together as partners who do not end up in a romance plot.
Recently, on Twitter, I happened on a discussion of Avatar: The Last Airbender (cartoon; there is no movie, just like there is only Highlander 1), where people were discussing, well, "Zutara" shipping, and mentioning the battle scene where [spoiler] jumps in front of [other spoiler] to save [pronoun], and then [other spoiler] [spoiler spoiler spoiler awesome spoiler]. ...yeah, well, spoilers.

And even though I have written Zuko-Katara Not-Quite-Hatesex fic, I thought about it a second, and... It was kind of awesome that they could have turned into friends who were not kissing. However much the writers had teased the shippers with "almosts" there.

...A:TLA had rather a lot of good bits. I want more stuff like that. (And not like the movie. There is no movie. There never was a movie. LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING DIFFERENT.)

beccastareyes

4 years ago

archangelbeth

4 years ago

l_o_lostshadows

4 years ago

beccastareyes

4 years ago

pointedulac

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

I think this is what qualifies as a negative Bechdel score. And it's a shame, since I was interested in it, too. I am tired of my gender being the "and Zoidberg", in media and IRL.
Me, too.
The good news is that this information will keep others from wasting their time.

(I think that Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back has a good example of a female jewel heist team, but I'm a dude.)
I *liked* the heist team. It's said to say that I remembered them ... in part because it stood out for being girls that were fun and competent and rare. WHY does it have to be rare?

wfw_sj

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

"It's exhausting being this unhappy all the time.

The media won't let me stop."

I understand this completely. It's nice to know I'm not so alone in feeling so...alone? Marginalized? Angry? All of the above.
Yeah, at least we can be angry and embittered together.
I am right there with you.

POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR Star Trek AND Fast 6. There will be shouting.








On Thursday, I saw Star Trek.

I came out of Star Trek saying, "Well, okay. They did better than the first one. Uhura actually got a little bit of Cool that wasn't entirely related to her being Spock's girlfriend; we added a second female to the bridge crew -- even if she never spoke to Uhura; the council scene featured possibly half women, and they even managed a plus-sized (for Hollywood) woman of color on the Bridge as a very secondary character. That's better..." I mean, they still haven't managed to cast a woman admiral with a speaking role (is there any reason the villain couldn't have been a mom instead of dad?) and why do these woman not wear PANTS for the love of all that's holy, but...better than Reboot #1? Also, why did we have to break HER leg? Seriously? Was that the only reason she was on that bridge?

Then yesterday I saw Fast 6, and...
Three female leads plus several supporting female characters. Every single one of them had a moment in the movie where they picked up a weapon and and performed actions equal to that of their male counterparts. When things became dangerous, they picked up guns and stood back to back with another person (sometimes male; sometimes not) to defend themselves AND THE OTHER PERSON. I can not gush enough about the beauty of a joint lock performed by Gina Carano. They ask competent questions, make decisions that are useful and relevant, demonstrate agency at all times, and they kick ass verbally, physically and professionally. (Seriously, Gina? More fight scenes, please.)

We won't even get into the people of color differences because... F&F6 makes a point of being inclusive of people of color, and it shows. Star Trek does not, and it shows.

Yes, I can find issues. The women are mostly wives and girlfriends. The men are still The Best, and they still outnumber the women. There was the obligatory Hot Chicks and Cars Scene. It was The Girl who needed saving in the end. It would be nice to have a good fight scene between a man and a woman where gender wasn't relevant but skill was. HOWEVER: if you told me that I had to be a woman from either F&F6 or ST, I would pick F&F6 hands down. And I've got to say, when I look at Geek Movie vs Street Racing movie, and it's the Street Racing movie that feels more welcoming to me, MY COMMUNITY IS DOING IT WRONG!

OTOH, F&F6 has taken in over $500Million world-wide, and it's done well in the U.S. Its target audience is a lot younger and hipper than I am. Maybe I should be grateful that better diversity is showing up in movies targeting that demographic and take it as a sign of progress. Right now though, I'm less interested in being grateful, and more interested in hitting my Geekdom over the head with a stick and saying "STOP! DO BETTER THAN THIS."
Everything I've seen here almost makes me want to see F&F6, when I've never watched any of the previous installments. I'm amused and intrigued in equal measure.

I just got home from the Trek movie. Sigh. ST:ID did Uhura some big favors, Scotty a couple of favors, and Sulu one big favor. (He actually had my favorite bit in the movie, and it was essentially part of a throwaway gag since it didn't really mean anything to the plot.) Everyone and everything else pretty much got shat upon (Bones essentially devolved into a caricature, for instance)... the more I think about it the more I actually find I hate the movie, and now I don't even want to watch the previous Abrams movie due to the tainting of the entire reboot line. Take away the keys, lock 'em in the vault, come back in a dozen years or so and try again. Grr. Also: I came home with a splitting headache because apparently every surprise-noise in the movie HAD TO BE a "BANG-SCREECH-SQUEAL" at 200 decibels. ARGH.

At any rate: I was mildly curious about the "Now You See Me" movie, now I'm going to avoid the everloving FUCK out of it. Thanks for the warning, and I'm sorry you had to sit through that, Seanan!

lissibith

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

I had a lot of high hopes for Now You See Me, but like you it just made me angry and disappointed.
We are united! Let's smash things.
OK, I am not particularly a caper film fan to begin with but I was thinking of going and seeing this with mkellis. Not now.
What she said. I am annoyed. I love a good magic movie.

Maybe I can talk branna into seeing F&F6 with me instead.

branna

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

Just once I want to see a female dominate action movie that ISN'T secretly a rom-com or "chick escaping abusive past"...

On a related note, if one that fits is known of OH GODS PLEASE TELL ME. I'm an action-movie-things-blowing-up-with-ALL-THE-CGI kinda girl and while the male eye candy is nice (really, anything with Vin Diesel I'll watch because, well, dude....), I'm so tired of the girl in need of saving/is a bitch/isn't a real person/other obnoxiousness deal that I kinda want to punch puppies a lot.
There are rumors of an Expendables movie with all female leads.

mkellis

4 years ago

spiralngphoenix

4 years ago

keestone

4 years ago

helbling

4 years ago

spiralngphoenix

4 years ago

greyduck

4 years ago

Haven't seen it yet, but I am completely convinced that you are correct that the character should have turned into Beth Reisgraf. That is possibly just because I think she's enormously talented, charismatic, and fun to watch, though.
She is pretty much amazing, it's true.
I basically spent every moment one of the magicians was on screen wishing he would turn into Beth Reisgraf

That statement alone makes me love and esteem you even more, if that's possible.

The movie definitely doesn't look worth the effort, thanks for the warning.

Oh, and just by the way, Husband's Mythie group is discussing zombies next month, bring your favorite book/movie/TV show/whatever. So I asked him what he was planning to share. Without a second thought, he said "The Newsflesh books". He thinks they're the best zombie stories around. So do I.
Aw, that is awesome.
I rarely go to the movies - only about once per year, in fact. Let's see - the last one was The Hobbit. OK, not a gender-balanced movie. Before that.... The King's Speech. Again, not gender-balanced.

My TV viewing (for fiction) over that same period had many shows with strong female characters. Warehouse 13, Lost Girl, Castle, SMASH, Bones, and Once Upon A Time all qualify.

Then some less balanced, but still not just one-sided. Elementary started out not very balanced, but it got better as the season progressed. Walking Dead, not really balanced evenly but still with significant roles for women. Person Of Interest, though male-dominated, had a very strong recurring VILLIAN role for Amy Acker - and from the season-ender it looks like she will now be a strong part of the Good Guys team in season 2 (so they make progress, it looks like). Dr. Who, well, The Doctor still dominates - but several good female companions since the reboot, plus River Song (fully The Doctor's equal when she's there). Overall, not too bad.

Grimm, however, has not used women very well so far. They had the "Superhero's Girlfriend Who Doesn't Know His Secret" role, then went down a painfully long "He Tells Her And She Immediately Get Amnesia" sequence - though FINALLY towards the end of the season they let her recover and be let in on things. But since she has no particular powers or weapons training, it's still doubtful she will become a full partner in things. I expect her to be treated as a Sidekick at best unless they make drastic changes. Foyle's War - male dominated.

I won't pretend that I actively seek out gender-balanced programs. I look for competent, sympathic heroes and a story that holds my interest. There are enough networks to give a lot of choice - and those are the ones I chose.

But not being a Nielsen family, my TV viewing doesn't get tabulated. The cash I paid for movie tickets (as rarely as that happens) does. So as far as "Follow the money" goes (and Hollywood is REALLY good at that), I guess I'd appear to be part of the problem 100% of the time. But there's still half a year to go this year....
We all have room to improve.
It's sad, but I was over the moon about the fact that there were multiple female characters in FF6. And that they all had interesting roles and actually got to interact with each other.

Oh! And that they did a 'girlfight' with Gina Carrano and Michelle Rodriguez that wasn't a girlfight at all. It was a legitimate fist fight that was staged just like a fight between two men would be (instead of being staged to be 'sexy' and objectifying)

It feels lately like I've pretty much leapt at any bread crumbs thrown my way.

Thank you for this post and for putting into words exactly why there is an issue with our media.
F&F6 did a lot of things right, and I am excited to see where they go with F&F7.

acelightning

June 9 2013, 05:57:57 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  June 9 2013, 05:59:17 UTC

Re: "You're pretty": (link found on someone else's LJ)

I only see maybe one or two movies a year, but I'm a die-hard Trekkie, even enough to tolerate the "reboot"; so, as long as we're re-casting movies to eliminate gender stereotypes... why couldn't Khan have been female?


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acelightning

4 years ago

dewline

4 years ago

acelightning

4 years ago

dewline

4 years ago

acelightning

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

acelightning

3 years ago

Deleted comment

+1 on Defiance. Four eps in and the Bechel test is passed.

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

Deleted comment

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

Ugh. Hadn't heard of this movie before, but the premise sounds really good, so it's a shame to hear they went all Bechdel-fail with it.

The movie that still disapoints me to this day despite the fact that I saw it a year or so ago regarding gender balace is The Adjustment Bureau. The premise was good, the film was way better than I was expecting, except for the fact that there were basically NO WOMEN aside from the love interest. The love interest's best friend had one line, and aside from her I legitimately do not remember there being any other women in the film, including extras.

The scene where this was most telling, we saw Adjuster Central, and we are given a scene with dozens of extras... All of them, and I do mean all of them (I was looking carefully), men.

And then when I explained why I was disapointed by the movie, my family told me 'it's just a movie', and to calm down and stop overthinking things. Gah!
My mother actually asked me the other day if I was capable of watching a movie without analyzing it. I was...annoyed.
You probably know about it already, but there was this study in schools (In Great Britain I think, it's been a while since I read about it) about the speaking time allowed to boys and girls by teachers in middle school or high school. To keep it short, teachers tend to give boys much more speaking time than girls even when trying to be fair (and it applies to teachers of both genders), girls who shows they know the answers are seen as showing off rather than smart, and lastly, when the teachers make sure to give both gender equal speaking time for the purpose of the experiment, the boys get angry because they feel the girls are strongly favored.

So yeah, bottom line, this expectation for men to have more presence and be more represented than women is something we can see in the behaviors of our children and the people who teach them so, sadly, I don't see things changing significantly anytime soon. Ideally, Hollywood would be a very good place to start changing things since a lot of people construct and adjust their view of the world in part from it, but it's Hollywood, it's all about stereotypes and make-believe...
I've seen that study. It's so accurate, and it makes me so angry.

So angry.
I got into a debate with my brother-in-law pretty recently about this general issue but in another format (video games, which he doesn't particularly play even) wherein he was defending a game whose design choices had kicked off some controversy. BIL defended it as "obviously intended for a particularly puerile teenage male mentality but so what? Not everything has to be high art. It's a design choice. It's not a big deal. If you don't like it you can play something else." I found this pretty surprising, as Brother-in-Law is generally extremely sensitive to gender things. He has a four year old daughter--he doesn't want her growing up thinking her destiny is to be some dude's reward for doing a thing.

I (and a few other people--gratifyingly enough, all male gamers, showing that the stereotype that all male gamers are dudebros who want women in the kitchen pouring the mountain dew is false) argued him down by getting him to really get that this game, in and of itself, taken apart, is a design choice, but you can't just take it like that because it's not, it's representative of what gets made and marketed and promoted. It's not "an option among a wide palette of options", it's an extreme form of the only functional option there is. I can't just say "I don't want to play a game that's character design and gameplay is aimed at the fantasies of a fourteen year old boy with more imagination than awareness of functional human body proportion, I want to play a game that's character design and gameplay is aimed at the fantasies of a *fourteen year old girl*."

I can't say this, because it doesn't exist*.

And if they tried to make it, it would fail, and it would fail because it would be designed by a group of adult men who haven't given any significant thought to the matter and don't think they need to because what girls want are pretty boys and sparkly dresses and ponies. Or, age them up a few years, babies and a clean house and to have a greener lawn and a better pool party than their snooty rival and how do you even make a game about that that isn't the Sims? And I gotta say, when I was fourteen? If I was daydreaming something realistic I wanted to go to college, and then go to some more advanced schooling thing, and then I wanted a real career job I didn't absolutely hate, and then I wanted a certain level of material stability, and then I wanted a cat, and then I wanted a boy, pretty much in that order. If I was daydreaming not so realistically I wanted a giant stompy flying robot which I would then use to save known space.

I don't think I was a freakishly weird fourteen year old girl.

I can't even say I'd want to play the absolute inverse of Dragon's Crown (the game that set off this whole discussion). I'm not fourteen anymore. But you can't say "you can go watch something that doesn't do that" or "you can go play the opposite after all" when that doesn't get made, and won't get made, and if it freakishly does get made, it won't get a design or marketing budget worth a damn, and if it gets made and it freakishly succeeds despite all that, they'll make a sequel to appeal to a 'wider audience' and suddenly everything that made it appealing gets ripped out so the boys will like it even more.

--

*During the whole Dragon Crown kerfuffle a lot of people brought up Beyond Good and Evil as proof that said game does exist. Okay fine. Yes. At fourteen I'd have LOVED Beyond Good and Evil. It's got a great female protagonist. She's not a sexy sexy kitten, she's a genuinely compelling and interesting person whose plot doesn't revolve around "you took my boyfriend" or something. I like it as an adult plenty too. It's a great game. It's ONE GAME. ONE. UNO!!!!! The existence of "token one thing" doesn't negate a problem, all solved, we can go home now, sexism over. It was also a commercial failure and is one of the games people point to when they go "this is why we can't put a female protagonist who isn't a Sexy Sexy Kitten in a game: nobody will buy it" so it strikes me as crazy unfair to also point to it as an example of Why Games Aren't Sexist.
I hang out in a gaming-centric forum called Talking Time, run by 1UP's Jeremy Parish. We've had a lively discussion this week on exactly this topic.

http://telebunny.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?t=12774&page=77

Unfortunately, due to a massive influx of spam bots the forum is currently only visible to registered members. But we're a friendly and intelligent group with large female and LGBT presence and a higher than normal human-to-asshat ratio. I don't believe in "safe spaces" but as locations on the internet go, it's a good place to hang your hat.

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

I'm *so* frustrated that this still has to be done!!! But I'm glad some are doing it and I'm glad one of them is you!! *hugs*
Thanks, honey.
Welp, another film that I can forget about watching. I've pretty much constrained my film choices to either LGBT films which I have to steal off the internet cos no one carries them around here, or action films where I'm not expecting them to pass the Bechdel test in any way, shape, or form, but where I am invested in the storyline (read: DC or Marvel films, specific stories that push my buttons positively, the first new Bond films cos of Judi Dench as M until they killed her off at least, bastards) and I am grateful for any properly rounded female characters whatsoever.

I get my fill of decent female characters from books, and now that I stop to think about it, THAT is precisely why I so vigorously oppose watching films made from books I love. Because the film industry will ruin my characters, especially my strong female characters, and thus put a blot on my internal world for that book forever.

Also, I never could totally embrace Harry Potter due to the lack of proper strong females in the lead. Hermione is constantly less than the boys, and she's the only one. (Rant to be spared for now.)
I can completely see where you are coming from.
YOU'RE PRETTY.

Oy. That's all they can think of? Why not introduce her and have somebody be utterly awed? I swear, it's like they don't know anything about magicians. (I don't know much, but I guarantee that in a sufficiently large group of magicians, somebody will be utterly awed by somebody else's accomplishments, even if it was that one trick performed in a tiny theater in New Orleans that nobody else in the group knows about.)

I want a team of two girls and two guys robbing banks with slight-of-hand and being awesome,

Hey, aim high - set it up so at least two of the team aren't going to end up romantically paired at the end of it.
Hypothetical movie scene:

Woman B, coming back from looking around corner: "Yup, they're kissing."
Man B: "Well, it's a standard reaction to all the stress..."
*they pause and eye each other*
*in chorus* : "Actually, I'm gay--"
*laugh*
*go back to doing something sensible like standing guard, or checking maps or whatever, and being buddies & equals*

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

I watched Bill and Ted's excellent adventure for the first time last night. And it was fun and all, but the whole time, I was sat there thinking, 'How long will it be, if ever, before you could have a version of this movie - or even a movie *like* this movie - with two female characters in the lead?'

Plus, it really pissed me off that of all the historical figures they go to get, the only POC is Ghengis Khan and the only woman Joan of Arc: when they come to the future and do chores at Bill's house, it's Ghengis who gets stuck cleaning the toilets and Joan who does the washing up, and when they go to the mall to see the marvels of this new age, Joan is hypnotised by the female aerobics instructor telling women how to be thin and fabulous. *headdesk*

I mean. I just. How long will it fucking TAKE?
Any chance of pretending Joan is actually hypnotized by the spandex-clad women/woman, because Women-Clad-Only-In-Paint is Relevant To Her Interests? O:(

(Part of chaperoning at school trips of the early teenage set is the occasional girl looking at standard advertising (e.g., car ads) and proclaiming something along the lines of, "What? What? She's cute! Can't I look at cute girls?")

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

amanuensis1

June 9 2013, 13:54:39 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  June 9 2013, 13:55:15 UTC

The kinds of movies you want to see are the kinds of movies I want to see, too, and, yeah, I want to see them featuring women! Have you heard of the YouTube project WIGS? It sounds particularly well-intentioned, being a film series featuring women, but there are very few of them, subject-wise, that appeal to me. I want fantasy and SF and space opera and adventure and heists and assassins!
Me, too!
Last night I watched Resident Evil: Retribution. It had some points that disappointed me (the whole "Alice goes after the girl just like Ripley goes after Newt"-thing, but that was mostly because it's a direct steal from Aliens, the whole "Michelle Rodriguez dies again" thing), but the film blows through the Bechdel test and ends with a big, full-on brawl with 4 women and two guys, and the guys lose. And, as noted above re F&F6 (also with Michelle Rodriguez!) this fight is not treated as a cat-fight, but as a real battle.

I need a "movies" icon.
I noticed a moment at the end of Retribution where the women were all slugging it out and the men were either down already or on the sidelines looking for a chance to help. And it stood out because I realized I've never seen that before, and I literally can't even count how many times I've seen that scene with the genders reversed.

seanan_mcguire

3 years ago

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