Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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I'd like to belong here. Do you think that I could?

The main flush of angry kvetching over the Hugo ballot has passed; we're on to complaining about other things, like the Clarke Award short list and whether or not "fake geek girls" really exist. (I have a guest post about fake geek girls and why they're a fiction that makes me want to set everything the sun touches on fire coming up later this month, so I'm not going to go into that now.) And to be honest, I'm really glad. Sure, it's nice to have everyone you've ever met in a friendly capacity saying congratulations for a couple of days, and it's an honor to be nominated—nothing can change that. But the personal comments got to be a bit much within the first twenty-four hours, and by the time the primary articles stopped, I was basically just hiding under my bed and waiting for it to be over.

(And yes, because I know it will be said, I know better than to go ego-surfing and link-chasing during the immediate aftermath of the ballot's release. This isn't my first rodeo. The trouble is, there's no way to make everyone else know this. I get emailed things, I get linked to things by people I trust, and while I try to be a sunshiny murder princess, I don't actually live inside a bubble of good feelings and kittens with machetes. I'm sure I could find way worse than what I encountered organically. I'm not going looking.)

Some people didn't like my nominated works; that's normal, that's okay, that's the way this is supposed to go. I assure you, the Hugo ballot is not 100% the ballot I would have designed, for me, to suit my idea of the best the genre has to offer. I think the only category that would escape my meddling completely unchanged is the Campbell, and that's just because I don't have any strong idea of who else was eligible this year. If you like 100% of this year's Hugo ballot, congratulations: you have won the genre lottery, and I do not envy you the stress of trying to decide how to vote. (And no, I'm not going to post my "in an ideal world" Hugo ballot. I have no interest in slighting the very worthy nominees who would not have been on there if some weird-ass rule had caused me to be solely responsible for selecting this year's candidates.) If you don't like what I write, that's totally cool. Vote for what you do like.

But the thing I encountered, in several places, that puzzled the living shit out of me? Was criticism of my excessive self-promotion.

Um.

Sunil helpfully went back over my blog for this past awards season, and found two posts: one summarizing my eligible works from 2012, and one saying "these are things which I have nothing to do with, but would love to see make the ballot." (Two of those things made the ballot, two of them did not.) I can't search my Twitter stream as easily, but I know I reminded people a couple of times that nominations were closing, usually by retweeting reminders made by other people. I never said "me me me nominate me me me." I did say that I really wanted to win a Hugo for fiction. I said it once. I said it with a clarifying note that I felt it was dishonest not to state my biases in that context. And that was it for my 2013 Hugo self-promotion.

I bring this up because I've seen more self-promotion—a lot more—from quite a few other authors, some of whom are on the ballot, most of whom are male. And that's fine! Self-promotion is not a sin! It's sort of our job. Word-of-mouth is awesome, and it sells books and builds fans, but that word-of-mouth begins with someone standing up and saying "I did something cool, please look at it." You should self-promote to exactly the level with which you, personally, are comfortable. If other people don't like it, they can stop following you into whatever venue you're promoting yourself in. I am not personally comfortable with excessive self-promotion, even as I find myself grateful when other people do it, because it keeps me up to date on their accomplishments. The human mind is a funny thing, and it doesn't have to make sense all the time.

But here's the thing: I have not seen charges of "excessive self-promotion" lain against any of my male counterparts. Not the ones in my weight class, not the ones above me, not the ones below me. Not the ones who self-promote ten times as much as I do. I have, however, seen the "excessive self-promotion" accusation lain against other women who make it onto award ballots. And that troubles me, because it demonstrates a gender bias that has been found in a great number of social settings and contexts.

Language Myth #6: Do Women Talk Too Much?

Click the link. Read it. And see why I get so upset when I don't self-promote much (and feel terrible about self-promoting at all, even though I recognize that it's a part of my job), yet get tarred for doing it "excessively." (And no, this is not a case of "protesting too much" or "where there's smoke, there's fire." This is a case of "I become distressed and depressed when accused of things I didn't do, especially when they're connected in any way to things which are innately difficult for me.)

These two quotes especially resonated with me:

"Teachers are often unaware of the gender distribution of talk in their classrooms. They usually consider that they give equal amounts of attention to girls and boys, and it is only when they make a tape recording that they realize that boys are dominating the interactions. Dale Spender, an Australian feminist who has been a strong advocate of female rights in this area, noted that teachers who tried to restore the balance by deliberately ‘favouring’ the girls were astounded to find that despite their efforts they continued to devote more time to the boys in their classrooms. Another study reported that a male science teacher who managed to create an atmosphere in which girls and boys contributed more equally to discussion felt that he was devoting 90 per cent of his attention to the girls. And so did his male pupils. They complained vociferously that the girls were getting too much talking time."

And...

"The talkativeness of women has been gauged in comparison not with men but with silence. Women have not been judged on the grounds of whether they talk more than men, but of whether they talk more than silent women."

I am not a silent woman. But I am not louder than the men who are in my peer group. We're all talking at about the same volume, some a little louder, some a little softer. And it would be nice if my gender would stop being the one factor that determined the worth, and appropriateness, of everything I did.
Tags: contemplation, cranky blonde is cranky
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Dredging up my rarely used LJ account to comment! Generally I follow the Hugos about as much as I follow the Oscars, which is largely just "with vague interest, in case I missed something I might like". It was nice to see so many things I already liked on this year's list tho, because a. I like them and b. it made me feel represented as a fan of science fiction. So even though this is not about me, it bugs me a little extra if people say that an author I like was nominated due to "excessive" self-promotion. I've recommended your books to a lot of people, and it was only because I thought they were good. I didn't get a free poster or a box of chocolates. Or wait, is that not the kind of promotion they mean? Do they just mean talking about yourself online, in any capacity? If so, everyone self-promotes to some extent these days. In truth, if self-promoting got you nominated so many times on the Hugo ballot, it just shows that you are extraordinarily good at self-promotion and good for you! Personally, I think people notice you because you write good books, and you have a lot of interesting things to say outside of your books too. So if there's any "self-promotion" in that, it's the kind I want more of. As a reader, I feel like any self-promoting you do, I signed up to look at. If I didn't want to hear about what you were doing or saying, I wouldn't look. It's not like any author is out there doing direct mail campaigns or robocalling like a politician or Wal-Mart. I still have to choose to look. Even if I go to a convention, I put myself there, I wanted to hear. To the extent that you actually are a 'loud' woman, I can only say: Good. You say interesting things, and that's the sort of person I want to be loud, regardless of gender. So I do find this whole issue of "excessiveness" troubling, and for the reasons you mention.
I wish I could give out free boxes of chocolates because chocolate fixes EVERYTHING (although I'd also need some vegan ones, and some gluten free, and something for the people with chocolate allergies)...
Gendered hierarchies and structures are so pervasive that even a genre that, ostensibly, is supposed to make observations of such things and challenge them... is blind to them?

Outside of that, I agree with the sentiment currently expressed by everyone else that's commented and, specifically, what spectralbovine said. You totally deserved all the nominations (and a win for Blackout *crossesfingers*)
I don't think we're blind to them, but I do think that change takes work and time. We're doing the work. We're going to need more time.
Great link! Fascinating!
Ta.
I was just reading down through your post thinking of Dale Spencer's study, and then, OH LOOK!

Thank you for pointing out the double standard, and I'm sorry you're having to deal with this at what should be a happy time for you.
Thank you.
But you tell people what you're working on! How dare you! You should labor in silence, leaving people to discover the merits of your work on their own... preferably hiding the books under a rock deep in the forest, guarded by a basilisk, to add valor to the challenge...
In a cellar, with the lights out, and the stairs, at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard".

ladymurmur

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

I read the Hugo whining posts when they first came out (they were linked via an email list I am on), and my first thought was 'What a load of tripe'. Then I remembered that this is the same whining that goes on every year - someone gets their knickers in a twist because either something they wrote (or something they like) didn't make the ballot, and they have to vent their spleen on teh interwebs (and in the process, diss most of the authors who did make it - and yes, I did notice that most of the dissed this year were women, and you in particular, which annoyed me to no end). I find that while not everything on the ballot may appeal to me, it's all good - and good enough to enough other people to make it to the final ballot, which is really all that matters.

I did notice, on one of the whiner's blogs, that a commenter pointed out that perhaps the reason you were on the ballot five times was because of the sheer volume of quality writing you produce in a year (I figure you just found a way to do without sleep, utilizing that otherwise wasted time for more writing :-).

Authors are supposed to self-promote - it kind of goes with the territory. I *do not* think you do it to excess - if anything, you are almost too self-deprecating, with only the two posts. Really, one post to say what you did during the past year that was eligible, and one post to point out some other things that you thought were Hugo-worthy are not too much, in my opinion. (I really liked your post about what you had eligible - I wish more authors would do that. There is so much that comes out during the year that I just can't keep track of it all, and I appreciate the reminders.)

Keep doing what you're doing, and don't let the turkeys get you down!
I will do my best!

acelightning

April 12 2013, 18:38:27 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  April 12 2013, 18:39:27 UTC

This is probably why we had science fiction writers like C. L. Moore, Andre Norton, and James Tiptree, Jr. *sigh*

Speak up for yourself, and be LOUD! Loud and proud, because you have plenty to be proud of. And if "some people" criticize you for it and say that you talk too much - well, fuck that shit.

I try? That's all I can do.

acelightning

4 years ago

I feel your pain. i have a very similar rant why calling a male "assertive" is a compliment bur calling a female "assertive" is nearly always intended as an insult..and let us not even get into what happens when you go past assertive and hit "aggressive." I'm in a field where the unassertive get chewed up and spit out... But as a woman I'm not "supposed" to be assertive. To which I have gone "yeah f-that, my middle name isn't doormat" but it means I take flack and then people smugly go "you see, you brought this on yourself by being assertive. If you were more ladylike people would treat you like a lady" (read: with basic courtesy. I am assertive; I am rarely rude, I tend to think that should be returned.)

And for what it's worth, I've always thought your fan interactions are pretty classy.
Oh gods the way male interactions are judged v. female interactions makes me rage face SO HARD.

I try to be classy, or at least crass but nice.

aliciaaudrey

4 years ago

Blink and blink!

"Excessive self promotion"? I expect you to talk about what you're doing. It's damned impressive how much you're doing, and I want to hear about it because you are VERY good.

It's the old conjugated adjective issue. Men are "assertive"; Women are "pushy". Remember those who know you value you, and the opinions of others (who are woefully uninformed) don't matter (except :: sigh:: perhaps to your sales; damage control that however possible, but remember that you are loved)
Thank you, sweetie.
I am not louder than the men who are in my peer group. We're all talking at about the same volume, some a little louder, some a little softer. And it would be nice if my gender would stop being the one factor that determined the worth, and appropriateness, of everything I did.

Damn right.

I'm sorry that people can be awful about this. They shouldn't be.

And women shouldn't be shamed for having the chutzpah to say, "I made this, I'm proud of it, I hope you'll check it out."
Aye! There's nothing wrong with taking pride in a job well done!

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

What idiot said that you excessively self-promote? Lemme at 'em. *gets out +12 Hobnailed Stompy Boots Of Doom*
You are best, and I adore you.
I do not think you promote "too much." I think anyone who thinks you promote "too much" can... unfollow you and stop reading your blog and otherwise do the EXTREMELY EASY thing known as pretending you don't exist. It's very easy to do this on the Internet.

And, once they have voluntarily cut themselves off from the glory of the Happy Machete Murder Goddess your oh-so-scary words, that means they aren't griping about you, and you aren't being stressed by them, and therefore there is more Happy Machete Murder Goddess for those of us who think you're awesome.

Because, y'know, you're awesome. And you do NOT over-promote yourself. Sheesh.
the glory of the Happy Machete Murder Goddess

*giggles muchly* Love it! All hail the Happy Machete Murder Goddess!

rhoda_rants

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

jlighton

4 years ago

Ursula said it pretty well, actually...

"The men up there don't like a lot of blabber
They think a girl who gossips is a bore
Yes, on land it's much preferred
For ladies not to say a word
And after all, dear, what is idle prattle for?

Come on, they're not all that impressed with conversation
True gentlemen avoid it when they can
But they dote and swoon and fawn
On a lady who's withdrawn
It's she who holds her tongue who gets her man"

'Cause clearly in the eyes of society a woman's silence is terribly necessary. Personally, I think it's boring.

It's true that I've seen more self-promotion from you than from your male counterparts, but that has nothing to do with how much you've promoted yourself. It's more to do with my near total lack of interest in your male counterparts. It's not even that I'm ignoring them because they're male, though, because I don't think that way, it's more that I'm not paying attention because they haven't caught my interest yet. Absent the comparison data, I still wouldn't consider what you've done to be anywhere near excessive, though, even if I assign self-promotion as your motivation for retweeting mentions of the contest in general (which is probably what your detractors assume you were doing there). I haven't gotten tired of hearing about it from you, so as far as I'm concerned you're well within range of what's appropriate.
I wish we didn't live in a world where the sea witch was right all the time.

I think you're right about the assumptions. It just makes me tired.

acelightning

4 years ago

Deleted comment

Thanks.
1. I want to hurt people who make you sad.

2. The gender stuff? MAKES ME SO STABBY OMG. I have a longer rant in my head about this...something about how too many people still think that books authored by women with female protagonists are "girl books" while books written by men with male protagonists are for everyone. yay! I might form that into something more coherent and actually blog it at some point...
.
About 35 years ago -- when I was very young and naive and hadn't even heard of this thing called 'feminism', although I was beginning to feel it -- my boyfriend was reading the blurb on one of my recently-purchased SFF books. In the processing of asking if he could borrow it, he turned it over and saw that it was written by a woman. "Never mind," he said.

He wasn't my boyfriend much longer.
.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

I'm really looking forward to your take on fake geek girls, especially since my only personal experiences with fake geeks is online. Everybody I meet in real life will only dare show geekery if they are true geeks.

Wow, those "excessive" self-promotion slams sound pretty . . . petty, for lack of a better word.
I am excited! I don't guest blog very often.

capplor

4 years ago

gothrockrulz

4 years ago

As a teacher (especially as teacher of grades 7 and 8) I really feel like I need to pay more attention to this. I am aware that I single out boys more often for negative behaviour, and girls for positive behaviour. I don't know whether that is because the boys are acting up more often than the girls, or that I overlook the girls who act out.

If I had a regular classroom (I am part-time right now) I would record the class for a language arts period and pay attention to how often the boys speak vs the girls.
If you get a regular classroom again, that would be a fascinating exercise.
OMG. I love you for saying this. Perhaps it will be overreaction or "fangirling," but THANK YOU. Thank you a thousand times a thousand times for speaking up. I love what you do and write because you are awesome, and also because you say what I think, sometimes, and can't get past my "upbringing" to say.

<3 <3
You are so welcome.

<3
"The talkativeness of women has been gauged in comparison not with men but with silence. Women have not been judged on the grounds of whether they talk more than men, but of whether they talk more than silent women."

0_o *is blown away* Damn. By that measure, Calvin Coolidge would qualify as a chatterbox. If that's going to be the standard, then screw the f'ing standard until the standard is 'compared to everyone else in the room'.

FWIW, as self-promotion goes, I think you're doing fine (maybe underselling it a bit, but not by much). I like the Q&As that you've done, and the countdown to the release of Rosemary and Rue was great. Sharing what you're working on and how far along pieces are toward being published is interesting. You give us a behind the scenes look at what's on your desk and, as much as you can, what's going on inside your head and what's up next, and you share things that have nothing to do with your writing or your music, which helps us to get to know you as a person and connect and want to support you by buying your work (which we already do anyway, because it totally rocks). If you say a lot about your work on a regular basis, it's because you're an incredibly successful writer who is having a lot of her work published, so you have a lot to announce. The occasional reminder/update posts for your loyal fans are fine, because we all have lives and it's nice to have an updated reference of when something's hitting shelves or simply a more recent list of dates so I don't have to dig quite as far back in your LJ to refresh my memory. That's something a smart, savvy author does for her fans, so thank you. Like I said, if silence is the standard, then screw the standard and anyone who insists on holding you to it.

At competition time you're very generous with compliments and respectful toward others on the ballot with/against you. The vibe I get is that, of course, you want people to vote for you but you want people to vote for who they truly feel most deserves their vote, and if that's someone else, then vote for someone else; may the best person win. You are the kind of person I'd want to be up against in a competition, because you play fair. You want to win and you'll do your level best to win but you're not going to stoop to dirty tricks to win, and there won't be any hard feelings or grudges if you lose.
I'd rather undersell than oversell, honestly. It's easier to live up to myself that way.

At competition time you're very generous with compliments and respectful toward others on the ballot with/against you. The vibe I get is that, of course, you want people to vote for you but you want people to vote for who they truly feel most deserves their vote, and if that's someone else, then vote for someone else; may the best person win. You are the kind of person I'd want to be up against in a competition, because you play fair. You want to win and you'll do your level best to win but you're not going to stoop to dirty tricks to win, and there won't be any hard feelings or grudges if you lose.

Thank you! This is what I strive for. Of course I want to win, but I want to play fair just as badly.

You're allowed to promote yourself.

If self-promotion was a bad thing, there would be no advertising.

No amount of self-promotion is going to compensate for bad stories. If people are voting for your stories, it's because they like them.

If (for the sake of argument) you have a big fan base that will mobilize and vote en masse for your stories, how do you suppose that fan base was attracted to come over to you in the first place? Could it be because THEY LIKED YOUR STORIES?

You are a popular writer because you write Awesome things that people love. It is not the other way around. It isn't ever the other way around, not for you or for anyone else whose creative work has brought them adoration and honors.

And congratulations on your nominations. Once again, you gorram earned them.
There is also the fact that of the more than 1200 nominations that were received, all but 14 were electronic. So people who are comfortable online nominated that way because it is easy. They may also have a bias towards authors who engage with them online in positive ways - ya know?

Of course, I was one of the 14.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

That is just baffling to me and reeks of butthurt.

Part of the reason I follow you, other than being interested in your various series and your emerald-standard posts about geek and feminist issues is that I admire the way you self-promote. That's what authors have to do; that's what they should do. And you've found, imo, just the right balance for promotion, for self-squee, for discussion with your audience, etc.

An author's audience doesn't come built in. You have to make it, and that requires self-promotion, which is probably the hardest part about the authorial business.

Snapping at you for being a good self-promoter (and not excessive at all, otherwise I'd get tired of you instead of look forward to your posts) kind of misses the point of being a writer. Posting twice on Hugo nominations is not excessive.

I know how you feel about being accused of something that you didn't do. I can take being accused of something I did, even if it wasn't my intention. But when I'm accused of something I didn't do, that just gets my dander up in arms.
I know how you feel about being accused of something that you didn't do. I can take being accused of something I did, even if it wasn't my intention. But when I'm accused of something I didn't do, that just gets my dander up in arms.

YES THIS.

Catch me being naughty, shame on me. Accuse me of something I didn't do, break my heart.
You are an incredibly productive writer and people like what you write. You are an author and a filker. Your income is derived from what you create. I think you're entitled to as much self-promotion as you want. There will always be people who need to knock others down to feel right. Screw the nay sayers: they're jerks. I'll keep buying your books as long as you keep writing them. As for the Hugos, I'm voting McGuire in 2013!
<3

Thank you.
You need to just be you and screw anyone who doesn't like it. I can name one author who actually said he was shamelessly self-promoting for the Hugos and I don't think he gave two hoots in hell whether anyone cared. And maybe that's our gender's failing. We care when we shouldn't. Sure, there are people who are going to get their undies in a bunch when we toot our own horns. That's their problem. Toot away, darlin'. You are awesome. You deserve a Hugo (or any other award for writing you might be eligible for). You earned it. Your readers love you, and those who don't love you, either don't know your work or don't matter in the grand scheme of your life.

:hugs:
I think we care because people take those bunched undies out on us, and there's only so much a heart can take.

*hugs*
Man. Stuff like this makes me appreciate my single-sex education. I learned the value of my own voice.
And your voice is AWESOME.

deire

April 12 2013, 23:58:26 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  April 13 2013, 00:06:14 UTC

One poor male baby at work is all discommoded when women aren't quiet enough. Pauvre petit. My heart, she bleeds the purple peanut butter for him. We're just too bawdy and not decorous enough. :snort: The words most people use to describe me are kind, intelligent, and genteel. And I'm too bawdy for Lil' Precious? I think what he means is "behaves too much like an actual person with actual opinions."

But hey, I'm sure all us lady sorts just need another case of imposter syndrome to shut us up.
Ummm...no.

You keep doing what you're doing.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

deire

4 years ago

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