Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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I'd like to belong here. Do you think that I could?

The main flush of angry kvetching over the Hugo ballot has passed; we're on to complaining about other things, like the Clarke Award short list and whether or not "fake geek girls" really exist. (I have a guest post about fake geek girls and why they're a fiction that makes me want to set everything the sun touches on fire coming up later this month, so I'm not going to go into that now.) And to be honest, I'm really glad. Sure, it's nice to have everyone you've ever met in a friendly capacity saying congratulations for a couple of days, and it's an honor to be nominated—nothing can change that. But the personal comments got to be a bit much within the first twenty-four hours, and by the time the primary articles stopped, I was basically just hiding under my bed and waiting for it to be over.

(And yes, because I know it will be said, I know better than to go ego-surfing and link-chasing during the immediate aftermath of the ballot's release. This isn't my first rodeo. The trouble is, there's no way to make everyone else know this. I get emailed things, I get linked to things by people I trust, and while I try to be a sunshiny murder princess, I don't actually live inside a bubble of good feelings and kittens with machetes. I'm sure I could find way worse than what I encountered organically. I'm not going looking.)

Some people didn't like my nominated works; that's normal, that's okay, that's the way this is supposed to go. I assure you, the Hugo ballot is not 100% the ballot I would have designed, for me, to suit my idea of the best the genre has to offer. I think the only category that would escape my meddling completely unchanged is the Campbell, and that's just because I don't have any strong idea of who else was eligible this year. If you like 100% of this year's Hugo ballot, congratulations: you have won the genre lottery, and I do not envy you the stress of trying to decide how to vote. (And no, I'm not going to post my "in an ideal world" Hugo ballot. I have no interest in slighting the very worthy nominees who would not have been on there if some weird-ass rule had caused me to be solely responsible for selecting this year's candidates.) If you don't like what I write, that's totally cool. Vote for what you do like.

But the thing I encountered, in several places, that puzzled the living shit out of me? Was criticism of my excessive self-promotion.

Um.

Sunil helpfully went back over my blog for this past awards season, and found two posts: one summarizing my eligible works from 2012, and one saying "these are things which I have nothing to do with, but would love to see make the ballot." (Two of those things made the ballot, two of them did not.) I can't search my Twitter stream as easily, but I know I reminded people a couple of times that nominations were closing, usually by retweeting reminders made by other people. I never said "me me me nominate me me me." I did say that I really wanted to win a Hugo for fiction. I said it once. I said it with a clarifying note that I felt it was dishonest not to state my biases in that context. And that was it for my 2013 Hugo self-promotion.

I bring this up because I've seen more self-promotion—a lot more—from quite a few other authors, some of whom are on the ballot, most of whom are male. And that's fine! Self-promotion is not a sin! It's sort of our job. Word-of-mouth is awesome, and it sells books and builds fans, but that word-of-mouth begins with someone standing up and saying "I did something cool, please look at it." You should self-promote to exactly the level with which you, personally, are comfortable. If other people don't like it, they can stop following you into whatever venue you're promoting yourself in. I am not personally comfortable with excessive self-promotion, even as I find myself grateful when other people do it, because it keeps me up to date on their accomplishments. The human mind is a funny thing, and it doesn't have to make sense all the time.

But here's the thing: I have not seen charges of "excessive self-promotion" lain against any of my male counterparts. Not the ones in my weight class, not the ones above me, not the ones below me. Not the ones who self-promote ten times as much as I do. I have, however, seen the "excessive self-promotion" accusation lain against other women who make it onto award ballots. And that troubles me, because it demonstrates a gender bias that has been found in a great number of social settings and contexts.

Language Myth #6: Do Women Talk Too Much?

Click the link. Read it. And see why I get so upset when I don't self-promote much (and feel terrible about self-promoting at all, even though I recognize that it's a part of my job), yet get tarred for doing it "excessively." (And no, this is not a case of "protesting too much" or "where there's smoke, there's fire." This is a case of "I become distressed and depressed when accused of things I didn't do, especially when they're connected in any way to things which are innately difficult for me.)

These two quotes especially resonated with me:

"Teachers are often unaware of the gender distribution of talk in their classrooms. They usually consider that they give equal amounts of attention to girls and boys, and it is only when they make a tape recording that they realize that boys are dominating the interactions. Dale Spender, an Australian feminist who has been a strong advocate of female rights in this area, noted that teachers who tried to restore the balance by deliberately ‘favouring’ the girls were astounded to find that despite their efforts they continued to devote more time to the boys in their classrooms. Another study reported that a male science teacher who managed to create an atmosphere in which girls and boys contributed more equally to discussion felt that he was devoting 90 per cent of his attention to the girls. And so did his male pupils. They complained vociferously that the girls were getting too much talking time."

And...

"The talkativeness of women has been gauged in comparison not with men but with silence. Women have not been judged on the grounds of whether they talk more than men, but of whether they talk more than silent women."

I am not a silent woman. But I am not louder than the men who are in my peer group. We're all talking at about the same volume, some a little louder, some a little softer. And it would be nice if my gender would stop being the one factor that determined the worth, and appropriateness, of everything I did.
Tags: contemplation, cranky blonde is cranky
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Yeeesh. And here I was feeling bad for not reblogging your Hugo stuff more. :( That study is really disturbing.

On a slightly different note, do you have a link to your "fake geek girls" guest post? I'd love to read that.
Nope, 'cause it's coming up later this month. :)

spectralbovine

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

jlighton

4 years ago

ladymondegreen

4 years ago

rhoda_rants

4 years ago

bekitty

4 years ago

rhoda_rants

4 years ago

sylviamcivers

4 years ago

I've seen people ragging on Scalzi for being an "excessive self promoter" sometimes; but nowhere near the vitriol I've seen aimed at women who don't do even a tenth as much self promoting.
That's part of why I got so upset. If you do something ten times and get yelled at a little, and I do something once and get yelled at a lot, can you really say there's not a double standard?

naath

4 years ago

argonel

4 years ago

I saw that on your Tumblr yesterday along with the entry from the teacher about harassment and was distressed by both of them. This shit's gotta stop.
Agreed.
I remember from my undergrad Sex and Gender course (Anthropology major!) we read a study about the perceived differences in the amount of time women spend talking vs. men in work meeting situations. If I remember correctly, women were perceived to be dominating the conversation when they were actually talking about 30% of the time. I'll need to look it up again to check my facts, but that blew me away when I first read it, and continues to bother me deeply. There are some deep-seated systemic things going on here that are deeply disturbing.
There are some deep-seated systemic things going on here that are deeply disturbing.

100% agreement from this quarter.

the_gneech

4 years ago

kaberett

4 years ago

ext_1752411

4 years ago

Sometimes it baffles me how little you actually self-promote. If I were up for a Hugo, I would be telling people to nominate me ALL THE TIME. I've had to push Mark to talk about it more, and he's learning!

Of course, the amazing thing is that you barely told anyone to nominate you and everyone still did because you're awesome.

I only saw two male authors being called out for self-promotion: Larry Correia, who was described as "embarrassing," and John Scalzi, who was...just sort of mentioned as someone who does do a lot of self-promotion but not, you know, excessively. Maybe if Scalzi had been nominated five times, there would be more vitriol abou—oh, who am I kidding, they would be congratulating him for a job well done.
Yeah, pretty much. There's a lot of "ew girl cooties" anger wrapped up in this conversation, and it just makes me tired.

khaybee

4 years ago

Deleted comment

billstewart

4 years ago

People are assholes. You are awesome.
I love you too.
Holy crap, someone might not have noticed the dude who was all NOMINATE MEEEEE SO THAT I CAN DISMANTLE THE SYSTEM BY BEING A LOUDLY CAMPAIGNING MAN what with all your reasonable ... oh god I can't with these people, I just can't. If it's not one thing, it's the invention of newer, deeper assholes.
Maybe someday we'll reach asshole critical mass and they'll stop.

museclio

4 years ago

dewline

4 years ago

I hope you take this as a compliment: I do not care for your novels, but I actively follow your work because you are brilliant at self-promotion. (Also because I adore your non-fiction writing. Any plans to publish a book of essays?) Although I'm in a different field, the things I've learned from watching you are extraordinarily useful. Keep on keeping on. You're a role model to me.
I do take it as a compliment, I really do! Like I said before, I don't require that anyone love everything I write, or even anything I write, although it's nice when my mother at least pretends. :) I'm hoping to put out a book of essays next year; I'll announce it here, if I get the green light.

I promise to keep on keeping on if you promise to do the same.

kaberett

4 years ago

dragonsong

4 years ago

maladaptive

4 years ago

kaberett

4 years ago

YES. Yes. Applause. Standing ovation.
Aw.
I found the "what's eligible" posts from you and a number of other authors (male and female) very helpful because my memory for these sorts of things is bad. I went looking for them prior to filling out my nominating ballot. Please don't stop doing them just because there are yahoos out there that don't think women should do those sorts of things.

Gender bias is a problem in many places. I work with mostly women and you'd think that would help. It doesn't.
That and I don't have a good feel for some of the categories, especially Novelettes vs. Short Stories (and sometimes Novellas if I read them as part of a collection and not a stand-alone thing; Novels I can ID because they are marketed differently). I assume the author knows what the word count is, since she has the text files; I could run a count of my own on an e-copy, but if I own it in print, I am SOL.

So someone like Seanan or Elizabeth Bear who writes a lot of fiction of all lengths can say 'this is what goes where', that's helpful to me.

wendyzski

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

tibicina

4 years ago

I have seen and noticed the same thing (about people ragging on you for excessive self-promotion, but not male authors), and have been utterly disgusted by it.

Also: 1) your self-promotion is entertaining and awesome, which is what self-promotion ought to be. 2) If not for your self-promotion, I wouldn't have found out about the Hugo Awards (and their awesome voter's packet of nominees) at all, so I am especially grateful that you DO make those posts.
I am glad.
I like the way you self promote. I don't think you are excessive about it. I think you are brilliant as a promoter of your work. The field guide was inspired for getting me interested in the incryptid books.

The more I think about this the more I go. "ooh... never thought o' that."

This is really disturbing to my worldview and you're right.
Peh.

Let's set everything on fire.
Huh. One of the things I really like about your posts/tweets is that you don't do much self-promotion. You let people know when there's a new thing out and if you'll be doing a signing or something but that's it. I've had to stop following other authors who did tons of self-promotion. Your approach is the way to go. If I'm following you, chances are, I've read your stuff and I'm a fan and don't need to be told 20 times to buy the newest thing.
That's sort of my theory, yeah.
This is ridiculous! You don't self promote. You are charismatic, and your followers may promote for you but really if they're calling what you're doing self promoting they're delusional.
It makes me tired.
I saw that "criticism" about self-promotion also, and wondered briefly whether whoever it was had mistaken you for someone else. Sadly, I think you're on to something when you propose sexism as the cause of the complaint. "She blogs a lot, therefore she self-promotes too much."

Sorry buddy: real blogging ain't self-promotion if you mean the term like it's a bad thing. And Seanan's is a real blog, not a long series of advertisements.

Ahem. I was just going to let you know I'd be tweeting, but I kept on getting angrier ...
At least we're all angry together, and not angry all by ourselves?
Holy heck actual science continues to be depressing. Or things everyone knows should actually be measured for truth.

Also congratulations on all the Hugo nominations despite whiners on the Internet you earned every one of them.
Thank you.
I read a piece in the Nation yesterday, which you may already have read, and it put me in mind of some of the issues you have raised here. It's on the career of Deborah Kogan. I'd link to it, but Livejournal marked me as spam when I tried to do so.

At any rate, I'm glad you posted this. We don't all like the same authors, but people who don't like authors who are women get gendered in their critiques, which is why this shit keeps happening.

Congrats on your nominations. I hope you win all of them. Twice. At the same time. While dancing backwards and in high heels.
.
Did you mean this one? My So-Called Post-Feminist Life in Arts and Letters

You gave enough info to Google it; it's both enlightening and depressing. Thanks for mentioning it.
.

lollardfish

4 years ago

starwatcher307

4 years ago

lollardfish

4 years ago

starwatcher307

4 years ago

rhoda_rants

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

sylviamcivers

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

I think you should be praised, not criticized, for the self-promotion you do. I'm talking not just about award-related self-promotion, but also about keeping your readers informed about what you are writing and publishing.

As you say, self-promotion is part of your job. And it is a hard part. You have to somehow praise your work without sounding arrogantly boastful. If you overcompensate, you will sound insincerely self-effacing. You have to carefully judge how much time to spend on self-promotion, because it takes time from your fiction writing. I'm amazed that you can pull it off so well.
Thank you.

patoadam

4 years ago

larsks

April 12 2013, 17:24:43 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  April 12 2013, 17:27:08 UTC

Arg, I am annoyed by the linked article, which refers to "this study" and "that study" and "another study" but does not actually provide any links to said studies. Maybe they're referenced in the "Suggested Reading" section? Hard to tell. If someone has already dug up those studies (I'm particularly interested in "Another study reported that a male science teacher who managed to create an atmosphere in which girls and boys contributed more equally to discussion felt that he was devoting 90 per cent of his attention to the girls.") and can post links that would be awesome.
I'm not responding to your specifiic request, sorry, but I was interested in the one on "silent women" and found from the web that it's said to be in the Dale Spender book she cites, Man Made Language, London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1980, on page 42.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

Deleted comment

Deleted comment

Agreed.
oh, yes. There's a huge dose of sexism in this: as a culture we remain hugely male-centric ans women are judged by much harsher standards than men. If we speak, wwe're pushy. if we don't, we're doormats or damaging our own careers through weakness or some such. And if we are also *successful*... Well, I've yet to see the level of venom dircted towards, say, Stephen King or Philip Pullman or George R R Martin that is regularly directed to any woman who writes a successful book -- I'm sure there are people out there who aren't fans of one or more of those three men (come to it, I don't care for Pullman, as I find him cycnical and sexist. However...) but they aren't screaming on masse at the gall of such 'talentless', 'overrated', 'undeserving' writers being popular. Those labels are reserved for the successful women. (And sadly, sff remains one of the areas in which there is a strong subset of people who are outraged that women are allowed to write at all, let alone be good -- or have fans.) I tried to explain this to a big name UK male pro a while back -- he was trying to get me to self-promote more -- and he listened hard and asked the right questions but in the end, he didn't quite get it -- he couldn't step out of that male bubble far enough to see why it felt unsagfe to me.
Which is a long way round to say that you are talented and you don't deserve the venom and it's theculture that's at fault, not you.
love
Kari
Will I see you at Worldcon? I miss you.

la_marquise_de_

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

la_marquise_de_

4 years ago

Wow, I find that article quite disturbing, as it shows a deep structural issue in society - and if I'm correctly interpreting the batch of proverbs from around the world at the beginning, in more than just our (USA or even Western) society. I do know that even as a somewhat shy man in a female-dominated field (that is, at all my biosci-related workplaces, women have well outnumbered men), I still find myself having to make an effort to talk less and listen to others more. On reflection, I guess the study doesn't surprise me, but it's quite troubling nonetheless.

And I was puzzled by the excessive self-promotion charge when I first heard it. As you say, you've been really quite restrained in your self-promotion. Honestly, I suspect that your encouraging people to buy a supporting membership to Worldcon if they want a say in the awards has had more impact than direct self-promotion. Not that you've been anything but restrained there - I really only can be certain that you've pointed it out at least once in the last two years because that's why Sarah and I have kept up supporting memberships since attending Reno Worldcon. At this point, I really should add that line to our next household budget revision.
I'm pretty sure that my (and Cat's, and Paul's, and lots of other peoples') encouraging folks to get supporting memberships has "hurt me," overall, since it's increased both the nominating and voting pools, and that makes it harder, not easier, to get on the ballot. And to this I say...GOOD. Let's get as many people at this party as we can.

groblek

4 years ago

Completely, 110% in the black. No frills, no exaggeration.
Thank you.
I cannot speak for people who know you first as an author. However, coming out of the filk community which is incredibly non-self-promoting, I understand how someone could see you as doing a lot of self-promoting. Because, essentially, they're applying the wrong set of standards to you. I occasionally fall into this myself, at which point I remind myself that this is your professional blog and part of why people read it is to find out what you're doing and when; self-promotion is a necessary and beneficial part of it. And then I feel fine again. (I do my best not to let this show, however, because a) it's generally very brief and b) it's my standards mix-up not your problem.)

I suspect it's a gender thing, however, for the people who don't know you first as a filker. Because I know academia is the same way - guys are just networking and women are pushy or whatever. Sigh. It's so frustrating.
As someone who listens to filk a LOT, filkers should self-promote more so I can FIND MORE TO LISTEN TO! I am a filk consumer. I need to know what I can buy.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

muddlewait

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

deakat

4 years ago

When I read the Hugo nominations list, I thought, "How nice. There are almost as many women as men in some of these categories. That's great progress." I forgot that many people will have read that list thinking, "OMG OMG. There are icky gurls on the list. A lot of them. OMG OMG. What if one of them *wins*?!!! I better do what I can to make sure the icky gurls don't win."

No, you don't self-promote too much. You didn't do anything wrong. Except be a talented woman, but really, there's nothing wrong with that. No matter what the Neanderthals think.
Icky girls AND people with names I can't pronounce~! Eeeeeew!

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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