Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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The endless alienation of media.

I love the SyFy Channel Saturday night movies. The goofy effects, the giant monsters, the sometimes wooden acting, it's all a delicious cheese sandwich to help me relax into the one night of the week where I don't feel rushed to accomplish ALL THE THINGS before I go to bed. I try to judge them by what they are, and not by what I want them to be: silly, shitty movies that accomplish what they set out to accomplish, no more, and no less. Sometimes they're even pretty good.

This past week, the Saturday night movie was The End of the World. It was about a group of geeks who owned/worked at a video store specializing in disaster movies, the judgmental SO of the geek who actually owned the store, the faintly evil cousin of the geek who actually owned the store, the disapproving parent of one of the geeks who worked at the store, the disaster guru idol of all the geeks, and a bunch of extras. The extras fell into three categories: evil looters who wanted to take stuff from our heroic geeks, assholes at the mental hospital where the disaster guru had been committed, and people at the military base.

Now. Looking only at what I've written above, how many of these characters were female? If you guessed "judgmental SO" and "disapproving parent," then ding ding ding! We have a winner!

None of the geeks were women. The SO even knowing what the Death Star was called was treated as a virtual miracle, and something so hot as to make the alpha geek temporarily forget about saving the planet, because she was speaking Forbidden Knowledge, yo. She was saying things that implied girls could be geeks too, and man, that was so impossible it was like she was demonstrating super powers! The mother figure was literally introduced calling one of the secondary geeks at work and asking him how the job search was going, because it was time for him to get a real job, in the real world, amirite girls? (The SO had a similar speech.) That's how we should interact with geeks! We should drag them kicking and screaming into respectability, because no one can ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever be happy and fulfilled just being a professional fan of things. And women can't even start being fans of things. It's not allowed.

None of the extras were female. None of the secondary characters, apart from the two listed above, were female. One of the female characters was there to nag and be a burden; the other was there to be a prize and to be enlightened about how Geek Things = Man Things and Man Things = Awesome.

And here's the thing. None of these characters—not a single fucking one—had such a gendered role that their character could not have been played by a member of the opposite sex. Testosterone did not unlock the key to saving the world. Estrogen did not cause the cataclysm. You could have literally flipped a fucking coin for every single role, and cast accordingly. "Whoops, female lead, male antagonist, female love interest..." Better yet, make it a d10, and if you roll a ten, roll again for assigned birth gender, and then go from there. "Female lead, male antagonist, ftm love interest..." It would have been the same damn movie.

But they didn't do that. They went with boys and boys and boys, and an exclusionist narrative that had me saying sadly "I like disaster movies. I exist, too."

I wound up stopping the movie halfway through because the lack of female voices had become so alienating to me that I needed to wait a while before I came back and finished watching. It was an okay movie. I won't be watching it again. There's no one for me there.

Men can identify with women, and should. Women can identify with men, and should. But there's a big difference between saying "Seanan, you should have been able to identify with the struggles of the protagonist, regardless of gender," and saying "Seanan, you should have been able to accept a world that cast your gender into the role of harpy and martinet, and not felt objectified or rejected by this setting." I did identify with Owen. I did care about his story.

It was everything around him that lost me. And honestly, I'm still lost, and I've been lost too many times.

Sometimes it would be nice to be found.
Tags: contemplation, horror movies, media addict, so the marilyn, too much tv
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I (sort of) watched that, too! The ending was the ABSOLUTE worst... the 'prize' saying something about geeks not being half-bad and kissing and ... uh! I almost barfed. I was re-reading a book that luckily monopolized my attention from most of the horrid movie.
Lucky.
Thank you, you've caught exactly what annoyed me about this movie (and that the Husband, being a male geek, didn't even notice).
That's part of the problem. I mean, I was so focused on the gender issue that it wasn't until much later that I realized it was a 98% white movie (there's one POC extra). It's so easy to say "oh, what I identify with is here, the work is over."

Deleted comment

That'd be nice.
But there's a big difference between saying "Seanan, you should have been able to identify with the struggles of the protagonist, regardless of gender," and saying "Seanan, you should have been able to accept a world that cast your gender into the role of harpy and martinet, and not felt objectified or rejected by this setting."

Word.
Thank you.

m_barnette

February 25 2013, 23:18:29 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  February 25 2013, 23:21:13 UTC

My mom was a gamer geek. A woman. A mom. A player of RPGs. She also wrote fantasy short stories. My sister and I grew up in this kind of environment. Imagine our shock and horror when other people would look at mom and sis as if they'd grown a second head the instant they rattled off details about Star Trek, Star Wars, D&D and other well established geekdom pass times in a room filled with 'normal' geeks, aka guys.

One of my best friends was denied entry into a Magic the Gathering tournament because 'women are no good at this and we don't want to waste our time explaining how to play.' She later came in second at a tournament, but was 'disqualified' on grounds that were never explained.

So yes, this is the sadly common mentality among geekdom, but it doesn't make it right, nor does making women the 'foils' to geeks ring true. There are many women gamers and fans of shows like Firefly, Star Wars, Star Trek out there and it's time 'geekdom' woke up to that fact.
PS: Anime cons are typically full of female otaku, far more than you see at most scifi cons simply because they feel more welcomed. At least that's what I've heard.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

elialshadowpine

4 years ago

I'd love to fix it. But I'm not a movie maker and I can't write. I wish there were more women characters in movies. I wish there were more handicapped characters in movies.
Agreed.
I think I remember a SyFy rep saying they were making program for geek boys because girls weren't geeks. Not those words exactly, but something to that effect that inflamed a lot of people.

Sounds like they're doing what they said. Sadly.

dewline

February 26 2013, 00:43:02 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  February 26 2013, 00:44:24 UTC

That company does not act as if its leaders want to understand the true nature of their audience.

They probably even said something to the effect of "By openly disagreeing with us, and producing contrary factual evidence, you're STILL proving us right to believe as we do!"

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

gehayi

4 years ago

dewline

4 years ago

juglore

4 years ago

gehayi

4 years ago

maladaptive

4 years ago

dewline

4 years ago

This is where SFF novels have it all over filmed SFF. When I read SFF, I can read worlds where all sorts of people exist and not just white cisdudes. The world of filmed SFF just hasn't caught up. I hope it will someday!
As do I.
Yes to all of the above. There are male characters I like and identify with, sure. But I sure would love to have some characters that actually resemble me. Not just relegated to love interest or token girl or nagging parent or oblivious outsider.
It could be an interesting exercise to structure a story around basic character tropes that are often gendered, but to then flip a coin as you suggest to determine their genders. Hmm...
I think people might be surprised by how easy it is to write humans.

muddlewait

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

deakat

February 25 2013, 23:53:02 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  February 25 2013, 23:57:44 UTC

That's one reason why WisCon will always be the con of my heart. When I'm there, I know I belong.

It's also why I can't bring myself to watch The Big Bang Theory anymore.
I can absolutely see this.

branna

4 years ago

maladaptive

4 years ago

I'm sorry this crap keeps happening. If it helps, myself and many of my friends know you exist and are glad you do!

As Major Glory said to the Powerpuff Girls, "Actually... we were kinda hoping you might let us join your club."

-TG
Thanks, hon.

maladaptive

February 26 2013, 00:53:19 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  February 26 2013, 00:53:43 UTC

I'm tired of being told, again and again, that I should identify with men, but when I dare ask for the opposite, for men to identify with women, I'm a hysterical social justice warrior. When men identify with women it creates this huge stir, like how everyone was gaspshockawed by Bronies.

It makes me think that maybe I don't identify with men, because they're actually all secret aliens who don't understand 50% of their own species. That's what they're always telling me, anyway.
For seriously.

maladaptive

4 years ago

saoba

4 years ago

I remember reading an article on OhNoTheyDidn't (which I've been searching for for about ten minutes now and can't find, ugh) about the problems with SyFy, including a weird line about how they're making programs that appeal to female viewers. At the time I just kind of side-eyed it and moved on, since I know very little about SyFy (other than that they gave us Warehouse 13, and now I can watch Lost Girl thanks to them, too) but this post about this movie makes me wonder.
Yeah, I have no clue.
Yes, exactly. I skip so many movies and TV shows these days because I'm tired of only one (VERY LIMITED) perspective being treated as the unmarked. Hello, I'm here, I exist, and I would like to consume your media! :P
Seriously! Female fans are loyal to the point of obsession. We will buy your tie-ins and your toys, we will put your DVDs on the best-seller lists, and all we ask is that we be ALLOWED TO EXIST.

soundingsea

4 years ago

A lot of good SF shows have a major female character in the top two or three roles. Ivanova, Kira, Carter, Weir, Janeway, T'Pol. As a man I have identified with many of these characters, not because they're female but just that they are great characters.
That is true. And I'm glad! But I still find it a shame that if out of 3 main characters, 1 is female, that's, like, totally equal; whereas if 2 are female that's like ALL WOMEN WHY THE HELL DID YOU MAKE IT *ALL* WOMEN.

dewline

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

So much this, in the general sense.
Rargh.
And they aired this during Women In Horror Month of all things? The nerve! *shakes fist* Maybe we should have a Girl Geeks Month too.

For the record: I have a long, prestigious geek heritage on both sides of my family. Mom bought and read a new Superman comic every week. Grandma had her own pet Tribble (it made that adorable little noise when squeezed) and faithfully recorded Star Trek: The Next Generation every night. My cousin knows more about the planet Mars than anyone I know, and got me reading Robin McKinley. My other cousin took me to see The Matrix for the first time. My brother and I used to fight over our old Gameboy. (We only had one and had to share. The old one, the exact shape, size and weight of a brick.) Last time the whole family got together? We got into a debate on who really wrote "Nightfall"--Robert Silverburg or Isaac Asimov. (Answer: Asimov wrote the short story, Silverburg adapted it into a novel.) I guess I'm lucky that I was raised in such a geek-friendly environment. My geekness was never questioned; if someone happened to heap derision on geekdom, they were put right very quickly.
I don't have a geek heritage, but I was raised in a geek-friendly atmosphere. Empire Strikes Back came out when I was two, and I was a total Darth Vader and Yoda fangirl. My dad printed out a Happy Birthday banner with Darth's helment and Yoda's face where he worked for my third(?) birthday. I forget which movie the Ewoks were in, but I was a huge fan of Ewoks. When I was in elementary school, I was REALLY INTO Star Trek I used to watch reruns of the original series every Saturday (IIRC) and I was big time into TNG. My parents took me to a TNG convention in our city when I was in fourth grade. I lost interest when TNG ended and drifted away from the fandom. I returned to geekery when I was twenty-three via Lord of the Rings and became a total Whovian in 2006. As an adult, my parents (or at least my mother) aren't as understanding of my being Passionate about certain fandoms. It hurts that she thinks I'm too interested or maybe spending too much time on them, but whatever. Why does becoming an adult and growing up equal the end to dreaming and becoming boring as hell to so many people? To paraphrase Sherlock, what must it be like inside their tiny little minds? Ah, well. I ramble. I grew up with geekery and I'm glad of it.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

dragoness_e

February 26 2013, 03:42:54 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  February 26 2013, 03:44:12 UTC

Y'know, one of the many, many reasons I like "new Who" (Nine & Ten, anyway, haven't gotten around to watching much of Eleven) is that almost every episode has major characters that aren't "straight white males". Not to mention capable women as major characters (the companions). And Capt. Jack Harkness.

...actually, I'm not sure there are any straight white male human major characters in series 1-3. The Doctor is about as human as the Luidaeg, Capt Jack isn't straight, Mickey isn't white, Jackie Tyler isn't male, Rose Tyler isn't male, Martha Jones is neither male nor white, Donna Noble isn't male, and Harold Saxon is just as white, male and human as the Doctor.
One of the many things I liked about the "new Who" spin-off, The Sarah Jane Adventures, was not just that it featured a 60-something year-old woman as its lead alien-hunter, but that in its final two seasons I don't think there was a single straight white male among its main cast of characters.

Also, when it was good, it was very good children's adventure television indeed.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

From all the things I love you for, I love you most for weird animals on your tumblr and posts like this one!
Aw. <3
and that's why you write the stories for everyone. Keep writing them, and flipping your coin. Eventually the world will catch on.
Here's hoping.
I don't watch SyFy movies, but I'll say I wish they didn't do the stupid gender stereotyping. Because I like to enjoy nerd-oriented media, and I do not particularly care about the gender of the characters. So I'd like to be able to enjoy what I like without that niggling feeling that I'm promoting sexism. Or racism, or... well, you get the idea. Because I'm watching it to enjoy the story and the world, thanks.
Agreed. So much agreed.
When I was reading your character descriptions, it was unthinking and automatic to picture the geeks as male. The parent, I saw as a father, but a mother works just as well. THe SO, well, of course they're female because the geeks are male and straight, so sayeth They Who Write Scripts and Control The World. The SO being an ignorant nagger is another cast-in-stone thing, and I have to wonder what the heck is up with that. Why would she stick with a guy she doesn't respect, and why is he putting up with her always riding his ass? I know there are guys IRL who do put up with nagging and girlfriends they really need to dump because their self-esteem really is that low, but--ugh. It's the Geek Stereotype, I suppose. Geeks are supposed to be such outcasts, any girl who'll pay attention to them, they put up with her shit no matter what because who knows when another might come along. That and they're emotionally immature, so the best they can do is junior high-esque relationships. xp

It's really too bad you couldn't remake this movie with genders changed around. A total gender flip or only some genders changed, your call, but one where females aren't underrepresented.
Yeah. That's the thing; I initially "correctly" guessed the roles, too, when I started seeing the shape of the story. And that burns.
Perhaps it's a lack of empathy on my part, but I don't tend to look the individuals in the media I consume in terms of "Who do I identify with" but rather in terms of "Who do I want to hang out with."

And when I see a group that has a total absence of women, there's the judgmental voice in my mind that says "Is there a reason why women are avoiding this group?" because I know that in real life, geekdom is an insufficient explanation.
Oh, VERY good point.

catsittingstill

February 26 2013, 11:36:53 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  February 26 2013, 11:46:54 UTC

Yeah. Just, yeah.

I had a long and kind of uncomfortable conversation with my brother after a movie about space aliens trying to take over the Wild West. About the Bechdel movie measure* (which the movie did not pass.) The end of it went something like "When I go to the movies I go to a world where my gender mostly exists to get the *real* people moving."

*For those who haven't heard of this yet, a movie passes the Bechdel Movie Measure if it 1) has more than one female character 2) who talk to each other 3) about something that is not a man. If a woman asks another woman where to find the bathroom, the movie passes. It's not a particularly demanding measure. Whether a single movie passes it or not is not really the point; the thing is that *most* mainstream movies fail it. Unless that has changed in the past year or so but I'd be surprised.
The Bechdel can be hard to apply accurately to horror movies, even ones with multiple named female characters, because the monsters are so often male. So I try to apply it as "do they have a conversation about something that is not a man, unless a man is trying to kill them." And yeah, it still fails a lot of the time.

Stupid world.

catsittingstill

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

rhoda_rants

4 years ago

*facepalm*

I can't say I'm surprised at this from the Syphilis Channel. They have been astoundingly -ist and out of touch for many years now.

Now, the fact that this is a problem damn near everywhere else, and that in writer's groups, the idea of questioning why the epic fantasy hero should be a straight white male, the reaction is literally like a *the More You Know* gif... yeah >_<
Yeah.
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