Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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What's coming up for Toby.

So I received an email recently, from someone* who wanted me to know that, while they enjoyed the October Daye books, they didn't like the fact that the plot for Ashes of Honor involved a missing child case, since this had come up before. Furthermore, if there was any hint of a missing child in the back cover text of Chimes at Midnight, they would be dropping the series.

This? Is totally, absolutely, 100% fair. You should never have to read anything you don't want to, unless it's for a class (and even then, only if you want to actually pass said class). Life is too short! Don't read bad books unless reading bad books brings you joy, and don't read books that don't interest you unless you have a damn good reason.

At the same time, while I can totally appreciate the sentiment, I'm not sure it's a sentiment that I, as a reader, would ever feel comfortable expressing to a writer. Especially not now that I'm a writer myself, which means I know that a) the story will go where the story will go, and b) by the time you get your hands on book one in a series, book two is finished and turned in, making it impossible for the writer to avoid the plot elements you've said that you dislike. "Don't do this or else" is a wasted statement. It is already too late to avoid doing whatever it is you want to have avoided.

But still, for every person who speaks, there are ten more who don't, so I thought this might be a good time to say something about what's coming up for Toby. Specifically: yes, there will be more missing people, because after defeating Blind Michael and preventing a war, finding people is what she has a reputation for being good at. Ironically, Toby herself prefers murder cases; they're less time-sensitive, and she's less terrified of getting it wrong. But if she gets a call from out-Kingdom, there's a very good chance that it's going to be about somebody's missing son, daughter, or heir.

The plot of Chimes at Midnight doesn't center around missing children, but it does involve someone who has been lost. The Winter Long is still in progress, and is more about people being found than people being lost; there's also a murder, which is good for Toby's admittedly frayed nerves. This doesn't mean that there won't be missing children somewhere down the road, because those are the cases that make people sit up and say "I want my baby back alive, get that October woman."

Losing and finding people are huge themes in the Toby series, and that's a very intentional thing; that's never going to change. If that isn't the sort of thing you want to read, I'm really sorry. InCryptid has different themes, and changes narrators periodically, which should help to keep things more varied. But much like Newsflesh was about truth, Toby is about loss. At least until we find the ending.

So that's what's going on for Toby, and why things are the way that they are. I hope it makes sense; I hope you'll all stick around. And if not, I hope you'll at least understand why I write it this way.

This is how the story goes.

(*Names are withheld, as always, because that's how we roll around here. Playing nicely is the new black.)
Tags: contemplation, toby daye, writing
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Well, that was... odd. I really cannot see myself mailing a writer and going "I do not like this theme in your past work, if you do it again I'll not buy it." I mean, as a minimum I think a writer should be free to create what they want to create, barring legal issues anyway. And sales issues, sadly. Anyway....

Looking forward to the next October Daye books. :D
I tend to agree 100%. Like, unless the author is my best friend and thus someone I can say these things to in real-time, it's just not something I would express. But people are all different, and a vague disclaimer is nobody's friend.

mariadkins

4 years ago

lysystratae

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

huh. I don't think I could imagine myself saying that to a writer either.There are series I've quietly dropped because I didn't like the bent of them, but Toby's never been among them, nor do I predict she ever will be. It's such a... human theme, I guess, that losing and finding. I adore it, though I can totally get why it wouldn't be someone else's cup of tea...

So, yes, as long as Toby's books are about finding, and losing, things and people and so forth, you'll have at least one person sticking around. :)
I've done that, too. I would never, ever tell the authors that, though.
It also strikes me that 'children' both in the sense of youth and in the sense of offspring are a theme of the October Daye books. You have Toby's relationships with her own mother and daughter (and Quentin and Sylvester and Luna, and even May), Raysel's feelings that her parents weren't there for her (and blaming Toby as a pseudo-sister who she thought her parents loved more), Tybalt and Raj, etc. not to mention the book-by-book plots. The issues of changlings in fae society is kind of a generalization of that theme, because they often come across as caught between two very different parent cultues, and because they change more readily than their fae parents seem to.
They are!

Excellent catch.

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That was sort of my thought.

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Threatening to walk away is passive aggressive and childish, and demanding things to go your way is entitled.

This is exactly what I was going to say. Seems far too much like this person was trying to manipulate to get his/her own way, which isn't something I think should be given in to. Writing is as much for the person doing the writing as it is for the person doing the reading (and sometimes more).

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seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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I'm truly puzzled about the reason for the objection. The mythology of faerie is all about the intersection of selfish childhood and deception. Children are stolen by the fae a -lot-. Changelings are slipped in to replace some of the stolen. Years and youth get stolen. Trust is abused and loyalty tends to be the only defense that mortals can cling to, if they want to survive or regain was was taken. The trope of loss and deceit is what makes the trope mythic!
This! Seriously, this.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

If you ask me, it's a nice change of pace to have mysteries which don't involve murders.
I mean, look at how many books and tv series already have a murder of the week, and then start counting up the number of fictional people who die for our entertainment, and how annoyed they must be, and I wonder if there's a realm of people who didn't live until they died and...

And then I wonder what tv would do if there was like, a rule that they couldn't use murder as the plot for a full year, and what sort of crimes would they have to solve then.

And part of this is me knowing that "solving murders" is not my strong point, and when I do the mystery stuff, like with Nick St. Claus, I like to think my way around it. (Which is funny, since both published Nick stories involve murder... of sorts.)
Rape.

Buckets and buckets of rape.

I watch enough procedurals to be sure of this.

elialshadowpine

4 years ago

That's very interesting, that someone felt comfortable enough to actually tell you as an author that they would be so outta there if you had more missing children. I don't think I would have the nerve, even if it was someone who I *emphatically* think took a wrong turn at Albuquerque with their plots/characterizations (LKH, I'm looking at you!). I like the InCryptid books more than the Toby Daye ones, I admit, but I own both series, and I trust you enough as a writer that I will follow both series to their ends, and will at least pick up the first books in any other series that you happen to write -- but even if I didn't, that's my personal issue as a reader, not anything to do with you as an author, per se. While I might mightily desire to have, say, Toby end up with a fat and happy househusband and twenty-three children (I don't, but it's the best example my at-work brain can conjure on the fly), I don't see any reason to subvert the author with my personal wishes -- they came up with the character and the plots, and, yeah, "the story goes where the story goes". If I really want that, I know where my private journal and my fountain pen are -- but I'd never flat-out ask you for it. Seems kind of an assumption of privilege (in the non-social-justice sense) to me on the part of any reader who'd do that.
I try to read things like this as "wow, this person feels comfortable with me," but then I wind up so uncomfortable that it doesn't help.
So—as a private detective, Toby shouldn't involve herself in missing child cases? I'm confused...
Yup.
Toby's a detective - I can see the influence of the classic "detective novel" on her character. And finding stuff - missing persons, lost objects, perpetrators - is what detectives do. Of course, the kinds of lost things that need to be found, the ways they get lost in the first place, and the ways to find them, are somewhat different among the Fae... ;-)

As I see it, Toby is also in the very slow process of finding herself. When she does, I suppose the series will be finished. Thank the Gods she has a long way to go yet!

She'll get there someday!

acelightning

4 years ago

(Blackout is playing on Audible as I type this out.)

I couldn't see ever saying that to a favorite author of mine. Now, I'm the kind of person that might, say, email my favorite author and ask them out to lunch if I'm going to be in their area but that's just because I'm a dork. Telling them "If you do this I'll never read your books again?" That just doesn't make sense.

Now if I had constructive criticism for a friend of mine who is also an author, or somebody in my writing group, that's different. This? This just doesn't make sense for me.
I am in much the same boat as you.
It is not the responsibility of the artist to please anyone else but the artist.

ericcoleman

4 years ago

What you are, ma'am, is a class act.

(Well, also a ridiculously compelling storyteller. You know. That too.)
She's a private investigator who specializes in finding people. Therefore, clients ask her to find people. Um, yeah, so?

BTW both of your recent books qualified for the "I'll sleep when I finish the book" club...
Aw, yay!
It's odd - with the 3 smalls now I'm MUCH more sensitive to children, lost, maimed or otherwise befouled, but yours don't seem to hurt me. When i was last pregnant I was watching a season of a show that I swear, in every episode, the murder of the week was a child. I had to muscle through it. It's the compassion and kindness of the other characters, the heroes and Heroes, that make it bearable. Light in the dark and all that.

As someone who really can't write stories onto paper I'd never presume to make an ultimatum to an author. Even ones that I soundly disagree with. Strange.

You are just a fantastic writer and that's that.
finding people is what she has a reputation for being good at.
[....] if she gets a call from out-Kingdom, there's a very good chance that it's going to be about somebody's missing son, daughter, or heir.


If you disregarded this and had her investigating a different kind of crime each book, I bet you'd get even more complints -- saying so much inconsistency was unrealistic.

(Maybe for personal reasons, missing children are a trigger for her.
Anyway, if she's so uncool about it that she can't even make her feedback polite, she's an outlier.)

houseboatonstyx

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

I'll admit, I was concerned when I read the blurb for Ashes- mainly just because I wanted to make sure the story was 'fresh' and not on a 'rinse and repeat' cycle. But I found Ashes to be very unique, and I LOVED it. But then again, I've had a thing for Tybalt since the very first book... I was happy as a clam. And looking at your explanation of the recurring theme, I totally get why it comes up again and again in the series. Rock on!
I got that same concern from my betas. :) I work really hard to make each "similar" case very, very different, and will continue to do so.
Wow. It always strikes me as odd that readers feel like they can email an author and tell them off for writing something they don't like. I mean, I understand, a reader is not going to like everything an author publishes. And that is more than fair. But if I didn't like a book by someone, I wouldn't be emailing them and telling them to never write something like that again.

I mean, as others have said, Toby is a detective. Missing person cases would tend to go to her - especially for the fae - since they don't have their own 'police force' in the human world. And it's not like the kidnapping cases were identical. Far from it, really.
It strikes me as odd, too. I would never do that.
But,
But, I thought you were writing the entire series just for her???
Srsly though.
You have the Fae.
They steal children.
And the books will go where they go.
And luckily for me, I want to tag along.

caper_est

4 years ago

It's been quite fascinating hearing that there are people in the world who feel perfectly comfortable saying this sort of thing to creative peoples. I cannot imagine having that level of gall!

I really wonder if it's the increased visibility and availability of authors these days. I wonder if Lovecraft ever got letters complaining about how many of his protagonists went mad.
Agatha Christie got complaints about everything. Not enough blood, too much blood, not enough murders, too many murders, puzzle too hard, puzzle too easy. If you read the author notes for her books you can see that this has been going on a long time.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

If you don't like what an author/director/screenwriter/series does with the characters/plot/universe you enjoy, write (or at least imagine) yourself some fanfic. :-) Isn't that half the fun of being a fan? imagining what could/might/should happen if this/that/t'other did/didn't occur/exist?

I always thought so.

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dornbeast

4 years ago

It is too bad that "What's coming up for Toby" isn't "coffee and kittens and rainbows". (I'm happy, because more Toby books is always good and you can't really sustain a series on just those three, but not happy, because more Toby books means more Toby suffering. Mostly happy, because this is among my very favourite series which I reliably preorder in paper.)

She would like that.
Wow. I would never, ever think to write to an author to tell him/her, "I didn't like your book," or "You shouldn't write about this." There are lots and lots of books I don't like. There are also books I pick up and think, "Ugh, not another book about ______ again." I've also read books by authors I really like that just didn't work as well for me. In none of these cases did I ever shoot them an e-mail and tell them about it--and I probably wouldn't even if I were said author's bestest friend in the whole wide world. Those authors invest a lot of time and effort into those books, and they may work for someone else even if they're not my cup of tea. What would it accomplish to e-mail said author with criticism, when I am neither his/her critique partner nor beta reader? To me, it's just useless--and possibly hurtful. I'd rather e-mail an author whose work I loved and tell him/her how fantastic it was :-) Better to spread the happy vibes than the cantankerous ones.
Me, neither.

Happy is always better.
Wow. I guess some people are a LOT more comfortable in expressing their opinions than I will ever be (since I feel awkward and nervous leaving POSITIVE comments). I can't imagine telling an author what he/she should write about!
Word.
I mean, ok, maybe I'm just trying REALLY HARD to have some optimism about human beings right now, but I read this and keep telling myself that what this person actually -wanted- to say was:

"Hey, I wanted to let you know that I love this series, but this one part of the story is really triggery for me, and as much as I love your books I can't really deal with it, so could you please let me know if I have more of this triggery subject to look forward to, so that I can avoid it??"

But maybe I'm just giving far too much credit, because as others pointed out, the way it's worded is a pretty shitty attempt at manipulation and demand.
That's actually how I interpreted it/thought it might be interpreted. That maybe it is something that's triggery and it's hard to word things when you're reacting to something that's triggered you.

That doesn't make it okay to say whatever you'd like or expect that an author will just do whatever you want them to because you threaten not to read, but it might explain the lack of elegance in the criticism.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

crooked_halo

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

anderyn

4 years ago

funjon

4 years ago

elialshadowpine

4 years ago

sanacrow

January 4 2013, 03:38:53 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  January 4 2013, 03:39:58 UTC

I love the Toby books. Partly *because* they are about loss, and her dealing with loss and especially with situations involving children.

I've lost children. I empathize with Toby. And the voice you've given her, and the humor you bring to the stories... well, I'm not finding the words for what I feel about Toby and the other characters in that world, but it's a really, really good thing.

Shared sorrow is lessened, shared joy is increased. Thank you.

(Edited because of fumblefingers.)
Thank you.
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