Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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Growing up a girl geek and becoming a geek girl.

I became a geek when I was four years old. That's when my grandmother handed me my first My Little Pony (Cotton Candy) and told me that if I liked her, I could have more. That was also the year when I first really and truly understood that Doctor Who had an ongoing storyline that could be followed and thought about, even when the TV wasn't on. I don't remember much about the year when I was four, but I remember those two moments of epiphany.

But wait, some people would have said (and did say), as recently as three years ago: being into My Little Pony doesn't make you a geek. It makes you a girl. And to them I said, every time, that if being into My Little Pony didn't make me a geek, then they had to turn in their Transformers street cred. Science fiction and fantasy got tickets to the geek-out party, and if teleporting unicorns who live on the other side of the rainbow and fight darkness with magic and thumbs doesn't count as fantasy in your world, you are not relevant to my interests. You don't gotta like it. You do gotta admit that not only the boys' cartoons of the 1980s contained the seeds of geekdom.

He-Man? She-Ra. Both were epic fantasy adventures. The Care Bears were basically friendly aliens who just wanted us to stop blowing shit up all the damn time. The Littles lived inside your walls. How is any of this not genre? But if you asked the boys in my neighborhood, it was girly, and hence it wasn't good enough. I saw proto-geek after proto-geek give up and drop out after she'd been told, yet again, that Transformers were serious and My Little Pony was stupid. I very quickly found myself in the unenviable position of being the only girl geek in my neighborhood.

I played with the boys pretty much exclusively (after I'd beaten respect for My Little Pony through their thick skulls), at least until we got to middle school, and my being a nerd became a problem. (Note: I'm using "geek" to mean "obsessed with geeky things and very open about liking them" and "nerd" to mean "thick glasses, read constantly, did math for fun.") The boys scattered. The girls, who had been socialized that geeks were icky, wanted nothing to do with me. I nested in my interests, and waited for the world to be fair.

Then, like a shining beacon: high school. Access to conventions. Access to that new miracle, the internet. I was no longer going to be a girl geek. I was just going to be a geek! I could be interested in ANYTHING I wanted, FOREVER, and my people would understand me, because they'd been through the same thing! FOREVER!

...only My Little Pony wasn't really fantasy, because it was "too pink," and Amethyst Princess of Gemworld wasn't a real comic book, and I had to be lying when I said I loved Warren Magazines because girls don't like horror, and Stephen King? Ugh so lame. In order to be a geek, I had to conform to the shape that others defined for my geekiness, hiding the things I really loved behind a veneer of Star Trek and learning the names of all the members of the Justice League (even though I had zero fucks to give). During that period, I guess I was a "fake geek girl" in some ways, because the people I perceived as having power over me had informed me, in no uncertain terms, that loving the things I genuinely loved, following my true geeky passion down the dark corridors it so temptingly offered, would mean I wasn't a geek.

It would just mean that I was lonely.

I learned to fake it. I can name multiple incarnations of the Flash, even though I am not and never have been a DC girl. No one who's ever asked me to do this has been able to explain the entire Summers family tree, but I've known since I was fourteen that if I confused Wally West with Barry Allen, I would be decried as a faker who didn't really like comics. I learned to quote Monty Python without ever seeing the show, and made at least a stab at all the big popular epic fantasy series of the day. My geek cred was unquestioned.

And it got better. I discovered fanfic, where people were a lot more willing to tolerate whatever I wanted to get excited about, as long as I didn't expect them to read my novel-length fixfic for a Disney Channel Original Movie. My Little Ponies became "retro" and "vintage," and my collection was suddenly "ironic" in the eyes of the people I allowed to judge me. I learned to roll my eyes at moments of judgement that would previously have reduced me to snotty tears. And somewhere in the middle of all that, I stopped giving two fucks about what other people thought of my geekiness. I stopped trying to be a gender-neutral geek and became a geek girl.

But you know what? I wish I hadn't been forced to go through that particular evolution. I wish I'd been able to walk in and say "My Little Pony is as good as Transformers" without needing a sudden surge in male My Little Pony fandom to make that opinion acceptable. (I love all My Little Pony fans. Friendship is magic. But as a girl who grew up with Megan and Firefly, it really does feel a lot like "okay, girls, we've finally decided your sparkly unicorns are cool, so they qualify for membership in the genre now.")

I've been watching the "fake geek girl" mess go around, and it feels like middle school. It feels like people going "your passions don't match my passions, ergo your passions must be invalid." And I say fuck. That. Noise. Geeks like things. That's why we exist. If what someone likes is costuming, or Twilight, or SETI, or looking for Bigfoot, why the fuck should I care? If you like something enough to shape your life around it, you're a geek. Period. You do not need to prove anything. Ever.

I look at geek culture now, and we're primed to allow a whole generation of little girls to grow up without that horrible middle stage that I had to live through. But they can only have that freedom if we stop pretending that unicorns are inferior to robots, or that girls can't like zombies, or that boys can't like talking bears with hearts on their stomachs.

Now if you'll all excuse me, I'm going to go to Target and buy some Monster High dolls, which I will unbox, redress, and play with, like a boss.

LIKE A GEEK BOSS.
Tags: contemplation, cranky blonde is cranky, from mars, geekiness, so the marilyn
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Rainbow Brite was my first fandom. I led my friends in what was basically freeform roleplay way back in pre-kindergarten. (As the leader, I got to play Rainbow Brite.)

Here I am now, a geek who never got serious at D&D, doesn't do comics at all, and watches very limited TV. But that doesn't make me a fake geek, thank you very much. It just makes me a book-fandom fangirl, and happy to be so.

Thank you.
THEY FOUND THE DIAMOND PLANET.

YOU WERE RIGHT.

The grayness is coming...
Go, Geek Girl, go!!
I'm going!
I had a proud geek girl moment when I fished a pair of manga off the discount shelf because I realized that they were a repackaging of a favorite cancelled comic that we own in pamphlet form. I stood in line geeking out with my comic book store guy and the guy behind me, who was perfectly nice, who was there to get his DC pull list seemed a little taken aback when I started describing the spin-off comic the author never finished, because he went off to work on Invader Zim. It's oddly empowering to know that sometimes your geekiness is genuinely weirder than someone else's, and that that's okay.

I hope that the next generation doesn't have to put up with other people questioning their geek cred, or trying to force them into liking things they don't want.
Me, too.

greyduck

November 27 2012, 21:04:35 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  November 28 2012, 14:35:18 UTC

I vote Seanan to be the boss. Who's with me?

Total agreement here. I was on the more-or-less standard boy side of things, but I was never into the "right" things. I didn't have zero fucks to give about Marvel & DC properties, but I only had a few gentle caresses to offer at any given time, at best. (And that metaphor went sideways on me in a hurry, didn't it?) See also, Star ____. I watched them, but they never did anything for me. And I was into cool Japanese cartoons a little while before that became "a thing" so, no cred there at the time. (Shit. Do I need to buy tight jeans and hornrimmed glasses since I'm clearly a hipster snob? Dammit!)

My biggest geekdom growing up was music. You can too be a music geek. You can be an anything geek, and I don't care if you're a man or woman or what-have-you. Also, somehow I grew up with an all-inclusive mindset: While I don't give a fuck or even a kiss on the cheek about Kirk Versus Picard, I'll defend Peter AND Phil AND Ray as lead singers for Genesis. They're all different, and different is good, and nobody has to be The Best, dammit. (See also, Joel Versus Mike. I can watch any given MST3K and enjoy it just as much as any other based on the host casting; the writing's what counts, after all.)

That got a bit long. Sorry. *cough* (Edit because somehow I was so out-of-it that I put the wrong guy's name in as a former lead singer of Genesis. FOR SHAME, MYSELF. Whoops.)
I would be a merciful boss. Except when I rained down frogs upon the land.

greyduck

4 years ago

vixyish

4 years ago

filkferengi

4 years ago

Deleted comment

Now is a good time to investigate Amethyst. DC put out a reasonably priced collection of the classic stuff not long ago and also recently rebooted the title for the modern timeline. It's been pretty good! :D

jadis17

4 years ago

juliael

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

- if being into My Little Pony didn't make me a geek, then they had to turn in their Transformers street cred. Science fiction and fantasy got tickets to the geek-out party, and if teleporting unicorns who live on the other side of the rainbow and fight darkness with magic and thumbs doesn't count as fantasy in your world, you are not relevant to my interests. You don't gotta like it. You do gotta admit that not only the boys' cartoons of the 1980s contained the seeds of geekdom.

I <3 this so hard.
I collected comics (Marvel only, DC never appealed to me) when I was in high school. There were two of us. I and one of my best friends. We weren't called geeks or nerds, we were thought of as those weird kids who collect comics, and aren't they really just for little kids. Interestingly the kids who played D&D were really cool, I suspect this has to do with the fact that for some reason many of them were also quite good at sport. Despite the regular teasing we got for the comics we never really considered not doing it. Damn it, we liked them and we weren't going to let anyone else dictate what we couldn't and couldn't do.
You are very lucky to have had that experience.
God bless you woman! Couldn't have said it better myself!
Thanks. :)
Preach it, sister!

Lately, thanks the surge of Star Wars discussion re-igniting my interest in getting back to the Star Wars books, I find myself remembering how I'd put a stopper on my geekery. Oh, I'd read my SW books while I was growing up, but not where my friends or guys could see me. And I remember, very clearly, my freshman year of college. I felt like I'd been liberated from the confines of high school and what I was allowed to express interest in (I'd also nabbed a boyfriend, who is now my husband, who also enjoyed my interests, so I wasn't trying to impress anyone), and since I had a college dorm room to decorate, I was going to get STAR WARS POSTERS!

The two girls who went to the mall with me when I discovered said posters were like, "Ew, you can't like Star Wars!"

And I said, "Fuck that," and bought the posters anyway.
I am glad you bought the posters.

wendyzski

4 years ago

calico_reaction

4 years ago

wendyzski

4 years ago

calico_reaction

4 years ago

I truly detest the "legitimate geek" argument. It's the same thing I hate about gender binaries in general. It's this idea that a girl can be a geek only when she likes things typically associated with boys and that the geek fandom only applies to certain pre-approved aspects of pop culture.

Superhero comics. Transformers. Star Wars.

And if you didn't like those things you couldn't be a geek. The truth is that you don't get to define being obsessed with something by only a handful of targets. Anyone can be a geek for any number of things and a girl liking Unicorns and Care Bears is just as geeky as the kid who collected all the GI Joe toys. It reminds me of how society defines "strength" and "heroism" to only include qualities typically associated with men. It's not invalid for a woman to be tough, cold, and glamorous but it denies the world of heroines who are just as equally strong and brave but also happen to be deeply empathetic and enjoy wearing make-up and dresses.

I think one of the areas where girls can like "girly things" and still be a geek is anime. You're still a huge nerd if you like Sailor Moon and don't like Dragon Ball Z and everyone agrees both are legitimate gateway shows to being an anime geek. And girls are never questioned for enjoying the more action adventure animes and guys aren't criticized for being fans of magical girl animes. I mean the number of Tuxedo Masks I used to see at Anime Conventions.

Yes girls can like gore. Yes boys can like pink. Can we stop making things a boy's club all the time and deny boys the experience of enjoying a wide spectrum of things?
Yes girls can like gore. Yes boys can like pink. Can we stop making things a boy's club all the time and deny boys the experience of enjoying a wide spectrum of things?

Yes, please.

sylviamcivers

4 years ago

supergasnojutsu

4 years ago

I will always be sad that geeks have to look down on other geeks. I love both Star Trek and Star Wars, I couldn't tell you what member of the Justice League was added what year but I do know that Superman heads them with Batman as the real power in the shadows, and I'm a bandwagoner because I only hopped on the My Little Pony train when it was rebooted recently.

I'm also a girl. I still think I'm geek enough for anyone out there.
You're definitely geek enough for me.
Well, yeah.

My little girls like what they like, which is highly variable from moment to moment. And that's fine by me.

As far as explaining the entire Summers family tree, there are moments when I'm not sure that's possible. Although Barry Allen's seems similarly complex from time to time. :)

(I suppose that last is a pun. I think I'll leave it there...)
I can explain it!

billroper

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

billroper

4 years ago

You know what sucks? As a boy nerd geek, I watched Care Bears, read Amethyst of Gemworld and Mercedes Lackey, didn't care two figs about DC comics and Star Trek...and nobody questioned my geekyness. Because I'm a guy, or because I was shy and tended to talk about stuff with people I already knew liked it -- or maybe they questioned my "guy" ness behind my back, but they certainly never questioned my geekiness.

I'm hoping that the diversity of the Net (which I didn't get until college--curse you, linear time) will make it easier to find people [of whatever gender] who like the same things you do -- and make it harder to wrap yourself in a bubble and pretend that girls who like magical ponies aren't real geeks, or guys who like them aren't real guys (or something).
That would be nice.
Some of my fandoms are unapologetically girly, (I read romance novels, for goodness sake, happily, without being ashamed of that fact even though some people think I very well should be), some are very ungirly (and yet I still ran around with a blanket-cloak pretending to be Frodo and a bright blue broomstick being a Jedi), but every once in a while I get the sense that I either need to 'prove' my geekatude in the non-girly parts (which many geeks of the female persuasion are sadly familiar with), or feel like my loving girly stuff somehow 'takes points away' from my 'true geekdom'.Even when sometimes they crossover brilliantly (one of my favorite romance novels has a main character nicknamed after a Final Fantasy video game character because the author is a geek too yes).

My greatest ambition is to see the death of this 'true girl geek'/'fake girl geek'/'let me give you a quiz on MY fandoms and if you don't pass then you are not a real geek blah blah blah' notion. Because it sucks. For everyone.

/whoops, I typed a lot... to sum up: WORD.
You never need to prove your geekitude to me.

tsukara

4 years ago

Yea, verily, yea. Let us all delight in our own enthusiasms! My friend's love for rugby is as good as my love for patchwork, and his taste for Jeffrey Archer is as good as my fondness for Cadfael, and my rpgs are as good as his pet bunnies!

If it is an unfortunate fact of human nature that we tend to clique up and scorn each others' geekdoms/enthusiasms in order to make our own shine more brightly, then we need to improve on human nature. As simple as that.
CADFAEL! yay!

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

THIS. All of this.

I'm tired of trying, of letting my geekness be defined by others. Boo to that. Let's rock She-Ra and Jem and the Holograms and My Little Ponies, because that shit is awesome.
That shit definitely = awesome.

Forever.

sylviamcivers

4 years ago

blythe025

4 years ago

And now I'm thinking that you have been engaged in boss fights most of your life, only you were the boss, and you won because you're still here.
That is the sweetest thing anyone has ever said to me.

muddlewait

4 years ago

Fabulous post! I haven't had to deal with geek snobbery about certain fandoms, since the only geeks I know are pretty chill, but I'm sad that anybody else has had to go through that. We geeks get enough snobbery from non-geeks--there's no need to treat our own so thoughtlessly.

Now you're making me want to watch the old cartoon I grew up with in mid-90's. :)
You should watch it!
Well phew, I'm kind of glad I wasn't up on all this - I had to google fake geek girl to find out what's happening and I'm kind of glad I'm late to the debate or I might have sploded.

Fuck that and someone being told that their passion is fake.
/end rant
Fuck that indeed.
"He-Man? She-Ra. Both were epic fantasy adventures. "

But HE had the power, and SHE had someone else's honor.
That's why boy's opinions matter and yours don't. Sigh.
Gosh, Seanan, don't you know anything?
Nope! I am ignorant and happy.

aliciaaudrey

November 27 2012, 23:28:42 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  November 27 2012, 23:37:50 UTC

*stands up*

*clapclapclapclapclapclap*

This fake geek girl crap is the most infuriating load of BS I've heard since the first time a frat boy suggested I wasn't a real gamer because I didn't like HALO.

I think I should've told him he had to turn in his unless he played a game that didn't involve Madden, cars, or overgrown GI Joes. Sadly that comeback didn't occur to me until somewhat later--I've gotten much faster with the retorts since then.
Good on you.
I always thought of myself as a girl geek, but it didn't bother me as it bothered you. Perhaps because I was interested in fantasy, all fantasy, so it wasn't like I was pretending when I loved Dungeons and Dragons or Magic: The Gathering or Highlander or ST: TNG. Perhaps it was because I was a nerd as well as a geek, so I adored math and science as much as I enjoyed fantasy. I am not sure. I do know that as much as I identified as a fantasy geek, I also identified as a girl. So I liked watching Superfriends, but my favorite character, the one I identified with, was Wonder Woman. (I dressed as her for one Halloween and adored my underoos! :D ) I watched The Return of the Jedi in the theaters when I was fairly young, and Princess Leia is the character who captured my attention. (I may have worn my hair in two buns on the side of my head for awhile afterward. Not admitting anything.) I watched all kinds of odd sci fi and fantasy (mostly with my father) and loved it all, but I insisted that my room had to be all pink.

When I got to high school and college, I got less girly, but I still identified mostly with the female characters. Hell, I still do. I have a really hard time watching a show if there aren't strong female protagonists. Yet, I played with "the boys" a lot. I played Magic: The Gathering card games, watched anime in illicit late night screenings (both in a group more male than female), watched The Next Generation and Highlander, etc. I still would consider myself more of a girl geek than a geek girl. I'm not exactly sure why. But at least I'm comfortable with it? And, as a preschool teacher, I try to pass on a love of fantasy and imagination to all of my kids. Boys and girls.
I got "girl" put before "geek" by a lot of people, because I'm such a Marilyn Munster. It was really damn hard on me. So the scars remain.
I collected 3 dimensional puzzles. Read scary spooky stories. Made and collected model cars. There were no geeks where I grew up (Roping, hunting and trucks were the required interests in my home town). I did my best. I organized a puzzle drawing contest at school (6th grade). Met my best friend that way. I never had any problem with girls but a lot of people; girl and boy, men and women had problems with a boy that hung out with girls. It wasn't worth it.

I was too wuss for the boys. Too boy for the girls. Too mean to be bullied. Too disinterested to bully. I think I was an accidental anti bullying force in my grade school. Most of the small kids and misfits were my friends and NO ONE messed with my friends.

Man, I didn't want to remember this.
I'm sorry. :(
all that up there? Me too. Except that I dislike most horror, and am not into MLP, that is exactly it.

Now Imma go knit minecraft things, because I am a geek woman and I effing well can ifn I wanna, and no one gets to tell me it is stupid or less worthwhile than anything else.

You rock some serious socks, Mz. McGuire.
You do, too.
Kick ass.
Yay!
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