Things I have learned, things that make me proud, and clarifying things.: seanan

Things I have learned, things that make me proud, and clarifying things.

Things I have learned in the last week:

If you make a post about the state of rape culture in urban fantasy, be prepared to deal with a lot of comments, reposts, and administrative scramble. This is not a complaint, I just want to write it down so that I'll remember next time. Also, I am still answering email and comments, it's just taking me a little while.

Things that make me proud:

With one exception, every discussion thread I have encountered has been totally civil and cool. Like, seriously, one site has had people going "but rape is essential to modern storytelling," and that is an amazing ratio. Thank you to everyone who has participated in this conversation, anywhere. This has been an incredibly civil, enlightening, interesting discussion, and I am so, so grateful that we all played nicely with each other.

A clarification of my position:

Okay, so. The one thing that I have seen people saying, which is reasonable, is that rape is an unfortunate reality of the world in which we live, and saying it never happens is not just unrealistic, it can feel like we're trying to erase the reality of survivors of sexual abuse. As a survivor of sexual abuse, this is absolutely not a thing that I am intending to do, or interested in doing.

But here's the thing. Had the question been "Will you ever write about a character who has been raped or otherwise abused?", I would probably have answered in the affirmative, just because I write a lot, about everything, and I'm not taking anything off the table. That wasn't the question. The question was "When will a character whose story you are already telling, who has not had this experience, have this experience on the printed page?" (Note that this was not the exact wording of the original question, but my reading of such. It's better punctuated, for one thing.)

I am not willing to write rape. I am especially not willing to write the rape of a first-person character, which describes all my current urban fantasy protagonists. I don't live vicariously through my characters, but there are sentences I am never, never writing as "I, me, mine." That doesn't mean I'm trying to erase the reality of sexual abuse. Just that it will never be a thing which happens during my books, because honestly, that is a thing I am not willing to put myself, my characters, or my readers through. I'm not telling stories that require it. I don't want to.

The other point I'd like to clarify is this: I've had a few people say that sexual violence should always be on the table simply because it's so realistic for male villains to want to use that against female heroes. Well, in my two primary universes, I have feral pixies living in a San Francisco Safeway, and frogs with feathers. If a lack of "I will dominate you with my dick" is all that makes you think I'm being unrealistic, I want some of whatever you're having.

slantiness

October 7 2012, 03:11:31 UTC 4 years ago

New comment

I kind of wanted to say something before, but I wasn't sure if I wanted to, but I guess I'll say it now.

[hopefully none of this would be spoilers, I dont know why it would be, but I am still talking about plot, so...]

Although Toby hasn't been raped, or that hasn't come up, there is always the subject of Devin. Although he was horrible, killed people she cared about, abused her, manipulated her, etc, she still seems to think of him almost fondly at times, and still appreciates the things he taught her, what he provided for her, etc.

And unless I am totally mistaken, there was that one time in Rosemary in Rue, where she slept with him, right? I seem to remember that. I know it wasn't rape, but he was manipulating her at the time, making her think he could trust her when of course he was the enemy and was going to use violence against her later (at the end of the book). That was barely even addressed, and it retrospectively felt like rape in my mind because she never would have let it happen if she knew what she knew by the end of the book.

I don't know why I needed to say this at all...I guess just because the whole idea has always made me feel so uncomfortable and I haven't personally seen anyone talk about it.

seanan_mcguire

October 7 2012, 03:20:27 UTC 4 years ago

Devin was dishonest and manipulative, and I truly regret that I let myself be pressured into including sex in the book; originally, their relationship was entirely in the past. But Toby gave consent. It was the willing consent of an adult woman, and even if he turned out to be an asshole, it doesn't retroactively become rape when that happens. It was definitely abusive and uncool: Devin was a bastard. But I'm not willing to say "Toby was raped" when she was saying yes, sure, okay, yeah, and enthusiastically participating.

Problematic, but not rape, if that makes sense.

October 7 2012, 06:13:43 UTC 4 years ago

I completely agree--I didn't mean to say I feel like it WAS a rape, only that it gives me a similar uncomfortable and sickened feeling when I think of it. Problematic but not rape=exactly. Thank you for phrasing it better than I was.

Part of the reason I mention it at all is just to say hey, just because Seanan doesn't want to include the forced penetration of her characters does not mean she doesn't write difficult and complicated topics of that nature. Life is complicated, and people make bad choices and have bad things happen to them, and you show that.

October 8 2012, 15:10:26 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you. :)

manwe_iluvendil

October 8 2012, 01:49:08 UTC 4 years ago

This is pretty much my attitude. I think the willingness of people to slap the label of "rape" onto all sexual misdeeds, consensual or not, really belittles the gravity of what a violation rape actually is.

Speaking as someone who's been hoodwinked into sexual situations I certainly regret, situations that were, to the core, not kosher... those were shitty situations, but they were shitty situations I consented to.

Calling that guy a rapist just because my judgment sucked would be, as far as I'm concerned, a cop out on my part.

julietvalcouer

October 12 2012, 16:42:00 UTC 4 years ago

Amen. I've made a really poor choice and if I wanted to play a victim card, I could call it coercion, or rape, or "sexual assault." No, I made a stupid but consensual adult decision. It was DUMB, but I could have stopped it any time. I didn't.

ironed_orchid

October 7 2012, 04:09:20 UTC 4 years ago Edited: October 7 2012, 04:12:20 UTC

it retrospectively felt like rape in my mind because she never would have let it happen if she knew what she knew by the end of the book.

Hmm, I would have never had sex with an ex if I had known he was a junkie before we got together, but that doesn't mean I didn't consent to the sex we did have.

It's okay to feel bad about having had sex with people afterward, but that doesn't necessarily make it rape.

ETA: I mention this because a lot of the people who don't think acquaintance rape counts claim it's a case of women consenting and then changing their mind and falsely accusing their partners of rape. When actually many women are raped because someone doesn't care whether or not they get consent at all.

October 7 2012, 06:15:46 UTC 4 years ago

Agree. As I said to Seanan, I didn't exactly mean that I felt like that action WAS a rape, more that it felt terrible and manipulative in retrospect.

If every sexual encounter one regretted retroactively became rape...yeah, that would be an issue.

October 7 2012, 06:29:11 UTC 4 years ago

While I try not to be overly pedantic on the internet, the part of your original post that I quoted was problematic in that it suggested that manipulative sex = rape, which is why I felt it needed to be addressed.

Log in

Things I have learned, things that make me proud, and clarifying things.

Error