Things I have learned, things that make me proud, and clarifying things.: seanan

Things I have learned, things that make me proud, and clarifying things.

Things I have learned in the last week:

If you make a post about the state of rape culture in urban fantasy, be prepared to deal with a lot of comments, reposts, and administrative scramble. This is not a complaint, I just want to write it down so that I'll remember next time. Also, I am still answering email and comments, it's just taking me a little while.

Things that make me proud:

With one exception, every discussion thread I have encountered has been totally civil and cool. Like, seriously, one site has had people going "but rape is essential to modern storytelling," and that is an amazing ratio. Thank you to everyone who has participated in this conversation, anywhere. This has been an incredibly civil, enlightening, interesting discussion, and I am so, so grateful that we all played nicely with each other.

A clarification of my position:

Okay, so. The one thing that I have seen people saying, which is reasonable, is that rape is an unfortunate reality of the world in which we live, and saying it never happens is not just unrealistic, it can feel like we're trying to erase the reality of survivors of sexual abuse. As a survivor of sexual abuse, this is absolutely not a thing that I am intending to do, or interested in doing.

But here's the thing. Had the question been "Will you ever write about a character who has been raped or otherwise abused?", I would probably have answered in the affirmative, just because I write a lot, about everything, and I'm not taking anything off the table. That wasn't the question. The question was "When will a character whose story you are already telling, who has not had this experience, have this experience on the printed page?" (Note that this was not the exact wording of the original question, but my reading of such. It's better punctuated, for one thing.)

I am not willing to write rape. I am especially not willing to write the rape of a first-person character, which describes all my current urban fantasy protagonists. I don't live vicariously through my characters, but there are sentences I am never, never writing as "I, me, mine." That doesn't mean I'm trying to erase the reality of sexual abuse. Just that it will never be a thing which happens during my books, because honestly, that is a thing I am not willing to put myself, my characters, or my readers through. I'm not telling stories that require it. I don't want to.

The other point I'd like to clarify is this: I've had a few people say that sexual violence should always be on the table simply because it's so realistic for male villains to want to use that against female heroes. Well, in my two primary universes, I have feral pixies living in a San Francisco Safeway, and frogs with feathers. If a lack of "I will dominate you with my dick" is all that makes you think I'm being unrealistic, I want some of whatever you're having.

...go 1 level up... Expand

seanan_mcguire

October 7 2012, 02:21:04 UTC 4 years ago

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Sadly, frequently, many people don't read for nuance.

My favorite was when my open letter to girls got linked somewhere and somebody went OMG WHO IS THIS GUY TO PRETEND HE KNOWS WHAT GIRLS NEED. And got "Um, did you Google the name before you got upset?"

"Oh. She's a girl."
"Yeah."

gothrockrulz

October 7 2012, 03:00:41 UTC 4 years ago

Too bad. Nuance is half the fun of reading itself!

That definitely is a funny story. I keep forgetting that sometimes we girls on the internet have to remind people that we're actually girls, as if our obviously feminine writing style wasn't hint enough. I can understand the confusion with people who post in a neutral, professional way that's hard to gauge. But people who write like they talk, but with better punctuation? It's going to show.

fadethecat

October 7 2012, 03:14:36 UTC 4 years ago

A lot of people who are women don't necessarily sound "girly" when they type like they talk. There are cultural pressures for men and women to speak in different ways, but they're not absolute.

October 7 2012, 23:55:03 UTC 4 years ago

Oh, I didn't mean to say "all women sound like girls, duh", though now that I re-read my comment, it sure came off that way. What I meant to say was, I'm surprised that people don't see the clues that, to me, at least, seem obvious. Hope I didn't bother you--I know how irritating it is when people expect certain traits and behavior from women.

October 7 2012, 23:59:06 UTC 4 years ago

Oh! Thanks for the clarification. And no problem. I bristle a bit easily at what looks like gender essentialism, but it sounds like that's not what you meant at all.

October 8 2012, 00:34:17 UTC 4 years ago

You're welcome. Thanks for being understanding. :)

hsifyppah

October 7 2012, 03:21:01 UTC 4 years ago

What, from the hearts we dot our Is with? I'm reminded of the Robert Silverberg introduction to a James Tiptree Jr. collection which argued that Tiptree was really, definitely, undeniably a man, because he could tell from the writing. Women write - and talk - in an astonishing variety of ways, and so do men.

October 8 2012, 00:05:12 UTC 4 years ago

Women write - and talk - in an astonishing variety of ways, and so do men.

Oh, yes, I definitely agree with you there. I didn't mean to say that all girls use cutesy phrases and symbols and that's how you can tell they're girls--what I meant was simply that women do leave pretty obvious hints a lot of the time in their writing, especially if they're just chronicling their own experiences and observations. That can be anything from complaints about unfair gender assumptions about women, to what political issues should be most stressed. Sorry if I came off as too generalizing--it certainly wasn't my intent. :)

rhoda_rants

October 7 2012, 04:12:03 UTC 4 years ago

Um, "obviously feminine" is kind of a dodgy descriptor--keep in mind we're talking about an author who has written from a male POV on occasion. For context, however, this is the post she's talking about. Additionally--and also for context--seeing that post reposted somewhere other than this journal I assume requires a bit of Google-fu to figure out who wrote it in the first place.

Having said that, Google-fu isn't that hard, and I find it difficult to believe that essay was posted without credit. Most bizarre though is the idea that readers would jump immediately to the conclusion that the author was male and get all butt-hurt over it. That is weird.

October 8 2012, 00:12:42 UTC 4 years ago Edited: October 8 2012, 00:28:48 UTC

Um, "obviously feminine" is kind of a dodgy descriptor

So I'm learning. :D Apparently, my idea of "obviously feminine" is at stark contrast to that of others, because I'm getting a lot of interesting comments. I didn't mean super super girly so much as a woman's mind will out, regardless of writing style. Guess this is a good learning experience for me.

Also, with regard to a woman writing from a male POV--I think that's awesome. (I probably should mention just how much my mind was blown by how realistic all of Shawn's inner monologues were, shouldn't I?) I really hope I can acquire the skill to pull that off well--one of the four main POV characters in my WIP is male, and I'm terrified of not doing him justice.

October 8 2012, 04:04:23 UTC 4 years ago Edited: October 8 2012, 04:05:35 UTC

Also, with regard to a woman writing from a male POV--I think that's awesome. (I probably should mention just how much my mind was blown by how realistic all of Shawn's inner monologues were, shouldn't I?) I really hope I can acquire the skill to pull that off well--one of the four main POV characters in my WIP is male, and I'm terrified of not doing him justice.

Oh gosh, I hope so too--for you and me both. This is why betas and workshops are such a HUGE help for us writers. I tend to write from a male POV quite often as well, not sure why, and I have been told some of those scenes read "female". Although again, I can't tell whether that's because it actually reads female, or if it's because they're in first person and my workshoppers already know I'm a girl and they assume the character is too regardless of the voice. And then on top of that, there's this tricky business of what a male or female "voice" actually sounds like, depending on who you ask.

Oh--and while we're talking about voice? For some reason, people who "meet" me online sometimes think I'm British. *shrug*

October 8 2012, 19:57:43 UTC 4 years ago

I tend to write from a male POV quite often as well, not sure why, and I have been told some of those scenes read "female". Although again, I can't tell whether that's because it actually reads female, or if it's because they're in first person and my workshoppers already know I'm a girl and they assume the character is too regardless of the voice.

Oh, I hadn't even thought about people automatically classing a tone as "female" because they know the writer is female. Makes me wonder if I should choose a neutral pen name . . .

Some people end up thinking you're British? Okay, that's awesome. (Though it makes me wonder, considering I never remember any British spelling in your writing. XD)

elialshadowpine

October 7 2012, 07:44:14 UTC 4 years ago

... the male vs female writing thing is not true for all of us. Those "test which gender your writing reads as" thingies on the internet? My husband comes out feminine and I come out masculine. They are not a guarantee (neither is subject matter, considering that Jim Hines writes just as frequently about feminism in RL and the fantasy genre).

October 8 2012, 00:20:12 UTC 4 years ago

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression--I didn't mean to say that all women write super feminine and all men write super masculine. (My own writing style shifts with my mood, sometimes feminine, sometimes masculine, sometimes both at once.) I just think that, no matter what style in which a woman likes to write, if you pay attention, you'll know it's a woman. I apologize if I touched a sore point--that definitely wasn't my intent.

Deleted comment

October 8 2012, 00:25:51 UTC 4 years ago Edited: October 8 2012, 00:30:01 UTC

Well, I wasn't talking about using usernames or photos to guess the sex of a person--I was talking more about the style of the person's writing. Not necessarily super girly or anything, just pertaining to a woman. All women have different personalities, but I think anybody willing to pay attention can still figure it out that yes, they are reading the thoughts of a woman, if they're attentive enough. Sorry if I touched a nerve.

Speaking of tomboys, do you think girls that like to catch frogs and lizards and jumping spiders count as tomboys? Because if that is so, then I was one growing up, too. :)

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Things I have learned, things that make me proud, and clarifying things.

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