Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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Things I have learned, things that make me proud, and clarifying things.

Things I have learned in the last week:

If you make a post about the state of rape culture in urban fantasy, be prepared to deal with a lot of comments, reposts, and administrative scramble. This is not a complaint, I just want to write it down so that I'll remember next time. Also, I am still answering email and comments, it's just taking me a little while.

Things that make me proud:

With one exception, every discussion thread I have encountered has been totally civil and cool. Like, seriously, one site has had people going "but rape is essential to modern storytelling," and that is an amazing ratio. Thank you to everyone who has participated in this conversation, anywhere. This has been an incredibly civil, enlightening, interesting discussion, and I am so, so grateful that we all played nicely with each other.

A clarification of my position:

Okay, so. The one thing that I have seen people saying, which is reasonable, is that rape is an unfortunate reality of the world in which we live, and saying it never happens is not just unrealistic, it can feel like we're trying to erase the reality of survivors of sexual abuse. As a survivor of sexual abuse, this is absolutely not a thing that I am intending to do, or interested in doing.

But here's the thing. Had the question been "Will you ever write about a character who has been raped or otherwise abused?", I would probably have answered in the affirmative, just because I write a lot, about everything, and I'm not taking anything off the table. That wasn't the question. The question was "When will a character whose story you are already telling, who has not had this experience, have this experience on the printed page?" (Note that this was not the exact wording of the original question, but my reading of such. It's better punctuated, for one thing.)

I am not willing to write rape. I am especially not willing to write the rape of a first-person character, which describes all my current urban fantasy protagonists. I don't live vicariously through my characters, but there are sentences I am never, never writing as "I, me, mine." That doesn't mean I'm trying to erase the reality of sexual abuse. Just that it will never be a thing which happens during my books, because honestly, that is a thing I am not willing to put myself, my characters, or my readers through. I'm not telling stories that require it. I don't want to.

The other point I'd like to clarify is this: I've had a few people say that sexual violence should always be on the table simply because it's so realistic for male villains to want to use that against female heroes. Well, in my two primary universes, I have feral pixies living in a San Francisco Safeway, and frogs with feathers. If a lack of "I will dominate you with my dick" is all that makes you think I'm being unrealistic, I want some of whatever you're having.
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Have you been getting a lot of traffic from the link at io9?

BTW, seeing them link to your post is just cool. That is one of my favorite sites.
It's really hard to say. I think so.

I know, right?!
thank you so fucking much for this and your other post, and i say this fervently, gratefully and with a great deal of admiration.
You are so very welcome.
Your original post was amazing and I didn't feel the need to contribute to the discussion, but I respect your stance and I appreciate it. You're awesome and so are your books. They're real enough to me and I've never sat back and thought, "Sure, Toby's been through total hell but why hasn't she been raped yet?" So... I don't understand that stance.

That Decemberists song gets stuck in my head once a week and I love it to bits.
OMG DECEMBERISTS.

I love them like burning. LIKE BURNING.

pointedulac

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

slantiness

4 years ago

gfish

4 years ago

pointedulac

4 years ago

fadethecat

4 years ago

rhoda_rants

4 years ago

sarahtales

4 years ago

I had things to say, with words and everything, until I got to your last line.
<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

Thank you! And for the record, I don't believe that duplicating every horror that our world now holds is the key to building a better world -- in Fairyland or here.
Agreed.
The other point I'd like to clarify is this: I've had a few people say that sexual violence should always be on the table simply because it's so realistic for male villains to want to use that against female heroes. Well, in my two primary universes, I have feral pixies living in a San Francisco Safeway, and frogs with feathers. If a lack of "I will dominate you with my dick" is all that makes you think I'm being unrealistic, I want some of whatever you're having.


Also, it kind of overlooks that writers craft their villains. Sure, if you're picking up scum and villainy at the local temp agency without looking at their resumes, you might end up with a rapist. But writers can choose what stories they tell, and if the villain or his henchmen makes them want to do the icky dance rather than the delighted evil cackle when they write him, that story might not get done on deadline. And then the cats go hungry and this is Bad.

It's not like there's a shortage of antagonists that don't see 'I will dominate you with my dick' as a primary goal, even in worlds without feral Safeway pixies or frickens.
It's not like there's a shortage of antagonists that don't see 'I will dominate you with my dick' as a primary goal, even in worlds without feral Safeway pixies or frickens.

Yes, this.

biomekanic

4 years ago

greyduck

4 years ago

lysystratae

4 years ago

From your original post, it seemed pretty obvious you had no intention of writing out a rape scene in graphic detail as it played out, but that said intention didn't rule out dealing with characters who had experienced it before. But, I guess not everybody read between the lines.

I love that last line. Awesome. :)
Sadly, frequently, many people don't read for nuance.

My favorite was when my open letter to girls got linked somewhere and somebody went OMG WHO IS THIS GUY TO PRETEND HE KNOWS WHAT GIRLS NEED. And got "Um, did you Google the name before you got upset?"

"Oh. She's a girl."
"Yeah."

ironed_orchid

4 years ago

gothrockrulz

4 years ago

fadethecat

4 years ago

gothrockrulz

4 years ago

fadethecat

4 years ago

gothrockrulz

4 years ago

hsifyppah

4 years ago

gothrockrulz

4 years ago

A note: I'd like to put it out there that male villains who double as rapists, to me, are a bit of a cop out anyway. That doesn't mean that all villains of either gender are always going to be well behaved but some of the best villain characters I've read or watched have been those those that were motivated by something bigger than simply being a bad person. I can think of many books I've read that featured a male villain who was incredibly evil and vicious but didn't have to be a rapist to show it. I think it takes a lot more creativity to make someone who is going to pull antagonist duties without resorting to something that is so overtly wrong and the character ends up being richer for it.
Agreed.

kyra_neko_rei

4 years ago

The other point I'd like to clarify is this: I've had a few people say that sexual violence should always be on the table simply because it's so realistic for male villains to want to use that against female heroes. Well, in my two primary universes, I have feral pixies living in a San Francisco Safeway, and frogs with feathers. If a lack of "I will dominate you with my dick" is all that makes you think I'm being unrealistic, I want some of whatever you're having.

Have I mentioned lately how much I adore you?
I adore you, too.
Hear Hear.

I still maintain, I want to escape in my books - not have all the horrors of the world in my face.

Give me a zombie or a fiesty pixie anyday.
Word.
Given what British Safeways were like until they became Morrisons, and even for a little while after that, I'm not sure feral pixies are wholly unrealistic.
They do, however, give a whole different meaning to "cleanup in aisle nine!"

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

dewline

4 years ago

weds

4 years ago

I'm glad that good came of this. It's unclear to me why anyone would think that they know your universe better than you. While it's also true that characters take on a life of their own, I trust you to know where your people's lives are going.

Also: Toby's been through enough horrible things already.
Agreed.
"The other point I'd like to clarify is this: I've had a few people say that sexual violence should always be on the table simply because it's so realistic for male villains to want to use that against female heroes. Well, in my two primary universes, I have feral pixies living in a San Francisco Safeway, and frogs with feathers. If a lack of "I will dominate you with my dick" is all that makes you think I'm being unrealistic, I want some of whatever you're having. "

Brava!
Thank you. :)
Are you saying that there aren't feral pixies living in the Safeway? 'cause that would be disappointing.

Seriously -- what especially squicked me out -- and infuriated me -- about the rape enthusiast is that he seemed resentful that you had not fed his deep interest in dehumanizing women. In fact, that's doubly infuriating, not only in his unacceptable demand, but in his belief that you are obligated to serve up whatever he, as a reader, desires.

Unacceptable and unforgivable. And a prime git. (Him, not you!)
And I'm not feeding it, ever.

There may be pixies!
I like your distinction in framing the question about your current, first person characters.

In slightly different news, I re-posted your Dear Girls of the World on my tumblr back in May, and every few weeks I see that that another couple of people, mostly young women, have "liked" it and/or reposted it to their readers, which makes me happy because it is such a great message and I'm glad it's still finding readers and trickling out into the world.
Aw, yay.
I kind of wanted to say something before, but I wasn't sure if I wanted to, but I guess I'll say it now.

[hopefully none of this would be spoilers, I dont know why it would be, but I am still talking about plot, so...]

Although Toby hasn't been raped, or that hasn't come up, there is always the subject of Devin. Although he was horrible, killed people she cared about, abused her, manipulated her, etc, she still seems to think of him almost fondly at times, and still appreciates the things he taught her, what he provided for her, etc.

And unless I am totally mistaken, there was that one time in Rosemary in Rue, where she slept with him, right? I seem to remember that. I know it wasn't rape, but he was manipulating her at the time, making her think he could trust her when of course he was the enemy and was going to use violence against her later (at the end of the book). That was barely even addressed, and it retrospectively felt like rape in my mind because she never would have let it happen if she knew what she knew by the end of the book.

I don't know why I needed to say this at all...I guess just because the whole idea has always made me feel so uncomfortable and I haven't personally seen anyone talk about it.
Devin was dishonest and manipulative, and I truly regret that I let myself be pressured into including sex in the book; originally, their relationship was entirely in the past. But Toby gave consent. It was the willing consent of an adult woman, and even if he turned out to be an asshole, it doesn't retroactively become rape when that happens. It was definitely abusive and uncool: Devin was a bastard. But I'm not willing to say "Toby was raped" when she was saying yes, sure, okay, yeah, and enthusiastically participating.

Problematic, but not rape, if that makes sense.

slantiness

4 years ago

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

manwe_iluvendil

4 years ago

julietvalcouer

4 years ago

ironed_orchid

4 years ago

slantiness

4 years ago

ironed_orchid

4 years ago

You just keep getting more awesome. Seanan, you are not just an outstanding writer, you're an outstanding human being.
Aw, thank you!
I think my favorite of the comments I saw was maraud, commenting in james_nicoll's journal:

I don't write but if I did the only rape featured would be Brassica napus. It would be the variety with 50% erucic acid so it would not be confused with canola.

Of course, most of your series take place in cities, so a scene on a farm seems unlikely for now. And if there were one, cornfields are much more traditional.
...maraud is still on LJ?! (I've known him *mumble* years now, dating back to alt.callahans on Usenet; I thought he'd abandoned this place altogether. And that is ABSOLUTELY something he'd say.)

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

Well, I'm not actually having any, but are you interested in a recipe for making a pumpkin spice latte? It requires a slow cooker, but that's the only unusual tool it requires.
Ooooooooooooo. No, thank you, but I'm glad that exists.

evieeros

4 years ago

I don't think I ever posted a proper comment on the other thread, but I did link it, and I was THRILLED to see so many new commenters appearing out of the blue with "I'm totally reading your work now!" That gave me all kinds of warm fuzzies. I think people really need to know there's a safe place for them to go when they read, especially in urban fantasy, and you're providing that for them.

To hell with the detractors. You don't need to justify or defend your reasons for not including rape in your stories. There's plenty of it elsewhere, in fiction and in real life. We don't need more.
Agreed, and thank you.
Kinda wanna see a scene now with a guy who shouts "I will dominate you with my Dick!", but it's, like, a magic Richard Nixon mask or something.
It would have to be an anime, 'cause everybody always calls out their attacks in those. ;P

Charles Ellis

4 years ago

"...I am not willing to write rape. I am especially not willing to write the rape of a first-person character, which describes all my current urban fantasy protagonists. I don't live vicariously through my characters, but there are sentences I am never, never writing as "I, me, mine." That doesn't mean I'm trying to erase the reality of sexual abuse. Just that it will never be a thing which happens during my books, because honestly, that is a thing I am not willing to put myself, my characters, or my readers through. I'm not telling stories that require it. I don't want to...."


Thank you, thank you, thank you! For both posts! And really, this is such a relief! I'm only halfway through the Toby Daye series, and now I can read on without worrying about getting triggered! I wish there were more authors like you...

(Sorry I didn't post in "Things I will never do to my characters. Ever.", but there were about 700+ comments stating my feelings way more eloquent than I ever could already, and I have severe social anxiety issues, so I lurked as usual. Trying to work on that.)

You are always welcome to lurk, but we're all glad to see you when you post. :)
I've been reading a fantasy book lately, off and on--not yours, obviously--and there's a plot sequence where bad things are happening, as a result of the bad things happening there is a large group of refugees who are abused in many ways, and one of the ways that's mentioned frequently is rapes of the refugees, both in general and in specific. It--makes sense, really, it is something that would probably happen, but it just seems like it's being brought up to say "And these are Bad People who are Doing Bad Things! This is Bad!" and it's casting kind of a gross shadow over the whole story now. In the book that this is a sequel to, there were two attempted sexual assault scenes, one of which ended in successful self-defense, the other in a successful rescue, and both in lots of blood. Those, while icky, didn't make me feel quite so unhappy about the overall plot, maybe because they were unsuccessful assaults, and they were quickly and decisively avenged.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, other than that I'm now noticing gratuitous use of rape to point out "bad people are bad!" even if it's in the remote background, and finding it disturbing.
Yeah, that's part of my problem, too. It's like...

"They killed people!"
"Boo."
"They ate bunnies!"
"Boo."
"They committed rape!"
"OMG THEY ARE MONSTERS LET US REACT WITH NONE OF THE SHADES OF SLUT-SHAMING THAT WE FREQUENTLY BRING TO REAL LIFE!!!!!!!!"

kyra_neko_rei

4 years ago

julietvalcouer

4 years ago

So what you're saying here is I don't have to worry about being dick-dominated by feathered frogs. Good. 'Cuz that'd be wierd. *shudder*

But seriously, thank You.
*huggle*
It's be really weird, among other reasons, because most frogs don't have... well, y'know. I think there's one that has a modified "tail" (a bit like a guppy or mollie's modified fin) that works similarly, but in general... Not a one. Birds are likewise un-equipped in that area, in the majority, with the exception of waterfowl.

So I really would not expect a feathered frog to be going about doing... that sort of display as a dominance behavior. >_>

It might stick its tongue out at you, though.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

"Will you ever write about a character who has been raped or otherwise abused?"

By some measures you have already done this.
While we never find out exactly what happened to Raysel during the time she was kidnapped (and truly I do not want to know) I do not think abuse is too strong a word.
seconded

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

THANK YOU.
You are very welcome.
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