Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire
  • Mood: disappointed
  • Music: Garbage, "Celebrity Skin."

Things I will not do to my characters. Ever.

Tags: cranky blonde is cranky, don't be dumb
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kittylady

September 29 2012, 14:15:16 UTC 4 years ago

I've read the first Toby book and no more in her series; I personally like my entertainment to be more lighthearted and escapey. But after reading this post, I wanted you to know that now that I am armed with the knowledge that my least favorite plot device ever will not be used in the series or anywhere else in your work, I'm going to get the rest.

Thank you for this.

droewyn

September 29 2012, 23:22:14 UTC 4 years ago

Try Discount Armageddon. It's so lighthearted, the hearts are floating away. And the mice are the best thing.

kittylady

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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mysterysquid

September 29 2012, 14:20:32 UTC 4 years ago

Ugh ugh ugh.

I CANNOT believe someone said that to you. And as you say, of all the things to be called on for realism! Oh well, as Scalzi says, everyone's Flying Snowman Moment is different. I feel kind of sorrt that that is theirs, really.

One series springs to mind where the female lead was raped a few books in, and I hated it. Thought it was the most unnecessary thing ever.

Thanks for not only sticking to your guns, but being public about it.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:30:56 UTC 4 years ago

No problem.

wfw_sj

September 29 2012, 15:11:38 UTC 4 years ago

I hesitated before commenting because you've gotten so many comments. But let me just say, hugs to a rape survivor, from a survivor of child molestation.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:31:10 UTC 4 years ago

Hugs to you.

tiamat1972

September 29 2012, 15:13:10 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you! While I understand that rape is a powerful statement in fiction (when done correctly of course), I don't see why it has to be in every single story.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:31:19 UTC 4 years ago

I agree.

mrissa

September 29 2012, 15:27:56 UTC 4 years ago

THANK YOU YES I AM SO SICK OF THIS YES YES YES

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:45:21 UTC 4 years ago

Me, too.

paladin77

September 29 2012, 15:44:16 UTC 4 years ago

Brava! Well said and long overdue across media.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:45:27 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you.

bunsen_h

September 29 2012, 15:48:02 UTC 4 years ago

This reminds me of a discussion on the FidoNet SF echo, back in the day. There was a... hmm, over-focused woman who asserted that any novel with adult characters had to have lots of explicit sex, or it wouldn't be realistic. And anyone who disputed that was either lying or a "dried-up old eunuch".

A number of people questioned her concept of "realistic". (Lawrence Watt-Evans pointed out that in his most recent novel, his protagonist started out in serious trouble, and in the course of the book, wouldn't have had the time to have sex.) I think you were dealing with someone with a similarly implausible world view, one that's much more biased towards violence against women. One which is part of a cultural pattern. Ick.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:45:38 UTC 4 years ago

...ew.

dewline

4 years ago

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ironed_orchid

September 29 2012, 15:55:38 UTC 4 years ago

The thing about Deerskin which made it so amazing for me was that it was a story about rape and about surviving rape.

Most of the rape as a back story or rape to make things "realistic" plots are not actually about rape, they are ordeal female character has to overcome to give her character more depth.

The women you write already have depth, because you write them as whole people, people whose lives are complex and occasionally messed up, and who we as readers can imagine existing beyond the page. Characters like that don't need misogynist plot arcs to make them seem more real.

drcpunk

September 30 2012, 00:29:23 UTC 4 years ago

Yes, exactly. There's... I guess I think of it sort of as "rape by the numbers", like painting by the numbers. It's one of the ingredients on the laundry list of Stuff to Add to the Story. Bleah.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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leesalogic

September 29 2012, 16:44:01 UTC 4 years ago

Would love to share this on my G+. Deserves to be read far and wide.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:46:00 UTC 4 years ago

Sure.

tennysonestead

September 29 2012, 17:17:49 UTC 4 years ago

Wow. What this says to me is that misogyny in geek culture comes from a place of deep, profound confusion... and a need to think we know what we're talking about in the face of uncertainty. These are geeks who would rather see someone suffer than suppose they don't understand all the rules, or that maybe the rules are fluid.

"Be like water," Bruce Lee said. Better advice was never given.

This casts an illuminating new light on the ongoing debate about misogyny in geek culture, for sure. I'm sorry you were so abruptly confronted with such an inappropriate response to what sound like very cool stories. At the same time, it's moments like this that give us a chance to reach out with compassion, and to prevent fear and misunderstanding from devolving into violence.

Because obviously that's where this goes, if left unresolved. Well done for reporting this as objectively as you have! I'd have been rip-shit!

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:46:28 UTC 4 years ago

I am, fairly, rip-shit, but I've learned to stay calm. If I don't, I fall apart.

samurai_ko

September 29 2012, 17:23:20 UTC 4 years ago

Remember the mantra... "Some people are just flaming tardbeasts."

Besides, it takes a brave person to wave that kind of ignorant inferiority complex out in public. :)

You go for sticking to your guns - if it's necessary, it should be handled as accurately as possible (that there is no dignity, no sensuality, no consent to it at all). If it's not necessary - it shouldn't be there. There are plenty of other ways in the universe for women (and men) to suffer than having to go through that. Brava for telling that person to shove it.

(From another one of the one-in-six. More than once. I'm a survivor, damn it.)

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:46:43 UTC 4 years ago

I am glad you have survived.

scottakennedy

September 29 2012, 17:25:38 UTC 4 years ago

Your post has stayed on my mind now well into a second day. It seems especially to resonate there as a sort of complementary piece to the recent Guardian article about creep culture ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2012/sep/22/creepshots-revenge-porn-paparazzi-women ), i.e., that article makes the point that, although in the west we pretend to liberation we nonetheless engage in regular "shaming" of women who dare to show a little skin (or who didn't even intend to). Making us as males seem not so different in our backbrains from those who demand women wear burkas. The idea, then, that strong female protagonists must inevitably be "raped" seems to stem from the same backward-thinking (i.e., in the case the woman is shamed for daring to take actions normally reserved for male protagonists). It's all so creepily misogynistic it really turns my stomach.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:47:06 UTC 4 years ago

The slut shaming in our society is terrifying to me.

gardnerhill

September 29 2012, 17:26:58 UTC 4 years ago

Brava, chica. (I imagine those people would *really* hate the Lukos society in my short story "Wolf Enough" - a vigilante squad of female werewolves who literally eat rapists for supper).

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:47:22 UTC 4 years ago

Hee!

syrusb

September 29 2012, 17:54:18 UTC 4 years ago

Okay so I was going to respond in an meme-y way but I changed my mind.

THANK YOU.

That is all.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:47:30 UTC 4 years ago

Very welcome.

sentientcitizen

September 29 2012, 18:11:40 UTC 4 years ago

...thanks.

I mean, I feel like I should have something intelligent to add to this conversation, but. Nope. Just: thank-you, for writing that.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:56:17 UTC 4 years ago

You are very welcome.

kouredios

September 29 2012, 18:51:00 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  September 29 2012, 18:51:26 UTC

It occurs to me that the reason this person expects one of your protagonists to be raped--the reason he thinks it's inevitable--is that, too often, in genre books with strong female protagonists, it is inevitable. And that fucking sucks. And one of the reasons I love you and your books so much is because you're fighting that trope. Your books are making it a little bit less inevitable. So, thank you, again, for your stories.

rhoda_rants

September 29 2012, 22:08:22 UTC 4 years ago

I feel this might be part of it as well. I can't tell you how many times the 'traumatic backstory' of a given female protagonist turned out to be rape or some other form of male-on-female abuse. Got so fucking sick of it. Which is I declare Seanan as my very favorite urban fantasy writer. (Well, one of many reasons. But it's a big 'un.)

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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aberwyn

September 29 2012, 18:51:02 UTC 4 years ago

Good for you! I agree about the "unrealistic" being crap.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:56:53 UTC 4 years ago

Totally.

dharma_slut

September 29 2012, 19:27:41 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you, thank you.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:57:06 UTC 4 years ago

Very welcome.

poltr1

September 29 2012, 19:29:41 UTC 4 years ago

Someone had the unmitigated gall to ask you that? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Interrobang! (In other words, "WTF?!")

I know survivors of sexual assault. One described it as "living through your own murder". And I worked as a volunteer at my university's campus escort service, known as the "Anti-Rape Task Force". Before I could start my first shift, I had a background check done and a rather lengthy orientation. Needless to say, it opened my eyes.

Bottom line: Your characters. Your story to tell. Suggestions like the one you were given should be dumped in the bit bucket.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:57:19 UTC 4 years ago

Agreed.

dewline

4 years ago

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princesselwen

September 29 2012, 21:21:23 UTC 4 years ago

This might be of interest:
http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2012/06/03/authorized-cruelty/

The whole 'realism' thing reminded me of someone saying that they didn't find the character of Black Widow realistic in the Avengers because she was a woman. Its a movie with THE INCREDIBLE HULK in it and you expect it to be realistic?

amber_fool

September 29 2012, 22:20:40 UTC 4 years ago

(several others have said this, and I just skipped to the last page, because 400+ comments? freaking awesome)

I think I can comment on the "realistic" comment, because I have the same weird quirk - In a movie like that, or anything that takes place in "our" world (urban fantasy, near-term sci-fi, etc), there is generally some fantastic change that must be taken as a given - Hulk, the existence of elves or magic, etc. But the rest of the world, unless you do something like the Rachel Morgan books and have the "current" time be significantly altered by past events, is assumed to be unaffected by that one assumption that allows the Hulk to exist.

The only reason I'm bothered by this particular phenomenon is that I'm a nuclear engineer. I don't care if someone has super powers from radioactive waste (although I wouldn't recommend trying it at home...), because that's the change the story's based on. But almost always, the rest of the science, which is presented as being entirely the science of our world, is completely wrong. Sentences make about as much sense as saying, "I jellied my dog the other ocean. He cuted those kittenses." And it's not like you can't just check wikipedia or any textbook anywhere for something that at least kind of sounds right, or someone who sat through an introductory class.

All of that said, the realism of "women can't do that" or "eh, women who do that are gonna get raped" is complete and utter bullshit. The Black Widow's existence falls within the suspension of our reality of The Avengers anyway (and, also, women can beat the crap out of you, although not in the ways she does because of physics) and, although I'm not familiar with most of the characters mentioned, attempted rape would seem like a good way to lose beloved body parts. But it's also not guaranteed. Statistics are dice, you can't just pick any group of six women and know one and only one will be raped.

(ok, I feel better now. Two soapboxes in one comment! I've been having a miserable few weeks, and that perked me up a bit.)

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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megpie71

4 years ago

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princesselwen

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:58:14 UTC 4 years ago

Not at all. Feel free.

droewyn

September 29 2012, 21:56:00 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  September 29 2012, 22:00:40 UTC

So... is this Woman on the Internet, Accessible Famous Person, or some combination of both... or do you just have some kind of weird mutant superpower that attracts crazy people who say horrible and upsetting things?

You have my deepest sympathies. And bewilderment. And righteous upset.

ETA: "Verity forgetting to change out of her tango uniform before going on patrol" Really? Really. Someone who's been in training to be a freaking ninja since birth is going to forget to take off a probably very expensive and easily damaged costume before going into a dangerous situation where pants and sensible shoes are a basic survival requirement? What is this I don't even.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:58:59 UTC 4 years ago

It's the combination. I know for a fact that I'm not the only person who gets this shit—I wish I were, because then it would be less prevalent—but I'm odd in that I try to unpack it in public, rather than burying it in the backyard.

groblek

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 17:59:21 UTC 4 years ago

I will absolutely not stop.

meyham_m2

September 29 2012, 22:31:45 UTC 4 years ago

Sometimes I think it's seeing those statistics (1 in 6, or as I've heard, 1 in 5 women will be raped in her lifetime) that makes some people think that it's unrealistic if female characters, especially if they have more contact with characters of dubious morals (i.e. if they are superheroes) don't become part of the national statistic. And while, yes, I believe that real life facts, uncluding grim statistics, ought to still hold true in fiction, that does not mean that the women in these stories have to be part of them. Who wouldn't want a more ideal world in your fiction, given the ability to write it? Who would want a bad to win again?

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 18:00:15 UTC 4 years ago

I think it's absolutely the statistics that make people think that. And yet right now, the statistics for our fictional people seems to be one in three, most of whom become BATMAN because of it. That's the sort of glorification I can do without, you know?

meyham_m2

4 years ago

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bramble_patch

September 29 2012, 22:43:19 UTC 4 years ago

Oh, man, ew, what a thing to ask.

I'm here via a link on Tumblr and I'm not familiar with your work, but I think I may have to pick up a book or two of yours in the near future.

notalwaysweak

September 30 2012, 07:40:00 UTC 4 years ago

I'd recommend starting the Toby Daye series; the first one's 'Rosemary and Rue', and if you like that then there are already five more published to gobble down.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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