Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire
  • Mood: disappointed
  • Music: Garbage, "Celebrity Skin."

Things I will not do to my characters. Ever.

Tags: cranky blonde is cranky, don't be dumb
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captaintwinings

September 28 2012, 20:46:10 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 05:41:26 UTC 4 years ago

You are welcome.

amanuensis1

September 28 2012, 20:48:47 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  September 28 2012, 20:54:32 UTC

O_O

You know, I admit baldly that I like rapekink and write rapekink: I might think of rapekink with an author's established characters, I might admittedly get off on seeing it show up in an author's book. But I hope to everything there is that I would never ever ask an author, "When are you gonna have your characters raped?" God.

If we're talking about a kinkmeme, a ficfest, or maybe a conversation with an erotica author who's known to specialize in that kind of thing--any of those venues where one's kinky fictional tastes and requests are invited to be laid out there, that's a very, VERY different kettle of fish. There are really people who don't get this? My eyes may never stop rolling.

And avoiding writing about rape as an author preference does not get to be dissed as "unrealistic." REALISM DOES NOT A STORY MAKE. And an author doesn't have to write anything she damned well doesn't want to. (That includes fluffy kittens and baby penguins, for that matter.) If I ask someone when they're going to write about drugs, poverty, sickness, any brutality, I don't get to say it's necessary because it's real, oh, I HATE that.

On behalf of all the kinky yet polite people who understand how not to approach an author with such a rude, invasive question, I'm sorry, dear lady.

(ETA: And rereading this post and the responses to it, I see that the issue probably isn't even kink for that kind of thing--it's the hideous assumption that rape makes plotsense because the characters are female or in danger or strong. That makes me so angry I can't even begin to address that coherently. Fortunately it looks like lots of other folk have.)

gement

September 29 2012, 05:05:42 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  September 29 2012, 05:21:44 UTC

This right here.

I write porn. I write exclusively kinky porn, and a lot of it is violent and violates consent. I write it in the full understanding that I am getting my rocks off to gratuitously hurting imaginary people.

Someone has confused his gratuitous fantasy with realism. I hope for the people around him that his friends have good support networks and he's not allowed to extend these assumptions further into reality.

Edited to add: And with that taste in reading and writing and kinks, I am still frequently squicked out to the point of nausea by the way rape and (lack of) consent are represented in a lot of fiction; there's an E. Bear book that left me shaking and I couldn't finish it. So, back on topic, I'm adding my "thanks" to the stack for not accepting rape as a compulsory plot element.

amanuensis1

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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flit

4 years ago

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klwilliams

September 28 2012, 21:09:15 UTC 4 years ago

Actually, I think you hit on the reason readers think women in fiction will be raped: because it happens so often in fiction. As an example, one day I was walking in San Francisco and passed a Latino man in his early twenties, and I felt myself get scared. Why? He was not even noticing me, much less doing anything at all potentially violent. When I thought some, it occurred to me that I'd been watching "NYPD Blue" lately, and they had lots of young Latino men on the show, and all of them were criminals. So I had managed to internalize that all young Latino men were criminals. (I hope I've cleaned that up, but who knows if it's not always going to be lurking there?) What you read/see in entertainment sticks.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:25:17 UTC 4 years ago

What you read/see in entertainment sticks.

So true.

chuk_g

September 28 2012, 21:15:04 UTC 4 years ago

Thanks. Way too much rape in books and comics already.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:25:24 UTC 4 years ago

Agreed.

Foz Meadows

September 28 2012, 21:21:02 UTC 4 years ago

Yes. This. Your interlocutor was clearly an asshat of epic proportions.

I'll admit to being a little confused, though, because clearly I've misread Toby's backstory and certain of the events in An Artificial Night (spoilers for that book ahead). Basically, I came away with the impression that part of Toby's enslavement to Blind Michael had involved sexual abuse - or at least, that seemed to be the inference of his having forced her to love him and the nightmares she had about their relationship afterwards - while her description of her youthful relationship with Devan certainly seemed to suggest manipulative, statutory predation on his part, to the point of it having given her serious issues about sex and intimacy. And so, from the combination of those two factors, I'd been under the impression that Toby already *had* been raped/abused, and now I'm kind of thrown, because the idea that I just read that stuff into the text without it actually being there is unsettling as hell, and says some seriously unpleasant things about my subconscious expectations/assumptions re the treatment of UF heroines.

0.o

archangelbeth

September 28 2012, 23:46:26 UTC 4 years ago

When I was thinking of those -- I thought of them as well, yes -- I basically figured that Blind Michael was emotional abuse (he had not "claimed his bride" pre-ride), and Devan wasn't non-consensual, but may well have been emotionally manipulated. Which is... different from Forced Assault. And can certainly leave serious issues, including second-guessing one's judgment, to say the least.

Author's Statements obviously trump mine, but I'm going to guess that if someone asks the questions that were being asked, then the asker obviously didn't see the nuances of emotional assault/manipulation, and were asking about Forced (and/or Forced+Stranger) Rape. Which is something that would at a minimum (for me) feel kind of gratuitous alongside Toby's body-count (she goes through enough heck and back already!), and would be out-of-genre for Velveteen, and for that matter, out of genre for Verity, too (who I see as something akin to an anime girl, and not the kind of anime with tentacles). The genre is established, and rape would break the implicit compacts as much as the author's own explicit ones.

Again, Author trumps me, obviously and of course, but when I thought about those, I was seeing some nuances.

seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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Foz Meadows

4 years ago

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krfsm

September 28 2012, 21:41:27 UTC 4 years ago

Needless to say, I was a little bit annoyed, and I still am.

My immediate, and somewhat intemperate, reaction involved loud imprecations about cattle prods, duct tape, and the idiot person asking this question...

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:27:06 UTC 4 years ago

Good reaction.

dornbeast

4 years ago

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tylik

September 28 2012, 21:58:34 UTC 4 years ago

For me this carries an extra level of squick, perhaps not appropriately applied* that the trope he expects is not just about women being raped, but that it will cast the rape and the woman's reaction to the rape in the standard tropes. All women are equally helpless before the great penis.

Part of what creeps me out about all the fictional accounts of rape is that there are so few storylines. There is such a heavy drumbeat of "This is what rape means, and this is what it will do to you!" (Kudos here to Mieville - "Choice theft" and everything around that was a pretty nice alternate take.) "And you will be raped!!" seems just one more stupid addition there.**

I'm also kind of struck by the assumption that character who are unlikely to be particularly vulnerable to human males will be then dealing with apparently non-human males... for whom rape is still going to be a weapon of choice? Er?

* Though I would be willing to bet correct.
** Point of fact, I have been raped. I didn't like it. I mean, duh. But I also have a pretty long list of things that I liked even less. Including working for certain managers (since sacked), medically supervised torture, etc. That rape, at least, was hardly a fate worse than death. It was, in act, fairly banal. (I am not meaning to imply that my experiences are anyone else's, of course.)

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:34:44 UTC 4 years ago

In fiction, rape is the ULTIMATE THREAT for a woman. Even worse than MURDER. Because at least murder doesn't mean you're DEFILED FOREVERS.

I don't get it either.

drcpunk

4 years ago

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gwaihiril

September 28 2012, 21:59:46 UTC 4 years ago

Ugh. I can't believe someone asked that or that they would consider you unrealistic for that. Thank you for making that choice. I'm sorry you have to deal with unreasonable idiots as a result.

(I'm mostly just spluttering in response. Unrealistic? Respect? I don't have words for this idiocy. I'm glad you do, and that you take the time to write it out. I wish you didn't have to.)

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:35:09 UTC 4 years ago

What's sad is that I have no trouble believing I was asked that. I sort of wonder why it hasn't been asked more.

liddle_oldman

September 28 2012, 22:04:16 UTC 4 years ago

I am ... speechless at this. And it takes a very great deal to render me speechless.

This person is being offensive, and assaultive in his own person. (I'm presuming it's a man.)

There is not enough no in my vocabulary for this.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:35:24 UTC 4 years ago

Here, have some extra "no." I buy in bulk.

wendyzski

4 years ago

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liddle_oldman

4 years ago

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bearhand

September 28 2012, 22:09:05 UTC 4 years ago

My response: "None of my protagonists are getting raped. I do not want to write that.

Thank you. I will always respect you for that.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:35:32 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you.

tarnera

September 28 2012, 22:10:42 UTC 4 years ago

...wow. Just... wow.

Many people before me have expressed my disbelief in this person's behavior far better than I could, so I'm not even going to bother, except to say that I'm severely disappointed that our library doesn't have any of your books.

Guess I'll be making a trip to B&N soon and shelling out for a few of them, then.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:35:48 UTC 4 years ago

My cats thank you for your impending purchase. :)

tarnera

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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phoenix_singing

4 years ago

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tarnera

4 years ago

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kyrielle

September 28 2012, 22:16:32 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you.

Honestly, you are one of the authors who could go there and I would trust you and follow along...because if you did it? There would be a d*** good reason and it'd be treated well.

Still, I'm glad you just won't. I admit there was one moment in a Toby book where I wondered if something would go that far, but no, he just stole a kiss or three.

I just don't see your heroines as very likely to get raped, either. Yeah, Toby takes stupid!risks, but the thing is? Your average rapist can't take her. I can't imagine why the people powerful enough to rape her would *want* to...especially as it would still be risky for them (both immediately, and after the fact...).

Verity? Okay, job puts her a bit in line of risk of that sort of asshole (honestly, probably more so than crossing the rooftops in the work outfit, is crossing the bar in it!). On the other hand, pretty sure that again, the would-be rapist would be in more danger.

Both can be defeated. Neither is worth the effort to a rapist, I wouldn't think. You tell me someone wants to kill either of them, I will worry for the heroine's sake. You tell me someone wants to rape them...dude, I'll start prepping a "get well soon" card. For the guy.

And again, thank you for not going there. :)

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:36:06 UTC 4 years ago

You are very welcome.

moon_custafer

4 years ago

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snowcoma

September 28 2012, 22:22:52 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  September 28 2012, 22:39:13 UTC

I can't read the comments for fear of triggering, but didn't Verity get her ass pinched/slapped in Discount Armageddon?

Does this not count to these assholes? It's SEXUAL ASSAULT. Also, I seem to remember him getting his ASS HANDED TO HIM.

(Having a stranger slap my ass was a very jarring experience that left con security, hotel security, and the police asking if I wanted to press charges. I was too shaken to do so, but he was arrested the very next day, so YAY.)

And I've been raped, so I guess I get street-cred with fuckers who ask things like this.


*HUGE HUGS TO YOU* Thank you for not putting your girls through that. If any of them were raped, I think I'd be crying too hard to finish the book.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:36:58 UTC 4 years ago

Apparently, no. The fact that sometimes the people around her are inappropriate is not good enough.

And so you know...the comments are all supportive people who want to change this culture. So you are not alone.

I adore you always.

sirriamnis

September 28 2012, 22:22:53 UTC 4 years ago

"Verity is the bastard daughter of Dazzler and Batman. Toby is what happens when Tinker Bell embraces her inner bitch and starts wearing pants. Velveteen brings toys to life and uses them to fight the powers of darkness. Sarah is a hot mathematician who looks like Zooey Deschanel but is actually a hyper-evolved parasitic wasp. The unrealistic part about all these characters? Is that they haven't been raped."

This. I love you for this.

As a sexual assault survivor, thank you for not using what happened to me and millions of other women as a plot hook. Just one more reason to like you and support your writing, among many, many, many...

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:37:11 UTC 4 years ago

You are very welcome.

incandescens

September 28 2012, 22:22:55 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you for holding and defending this point of view, and I am sorry that you were subjected to this person's . . . opinions. They have clearly demonstrated what sort of book they would write.

They are extremely depressing. You are a source of hope and very much appreciated.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:37:23 UTC 4 years ago

I appreciate you, too.

lesleen

September 28 2012, 22:29:37 UTC 4 years ago

Holy cow! I would have backed away from said person and looked for something to hit them with, preferably one that leaves them unable to remember their own name. The fact that someone thinks that way is seriously disturbing. Why should the female character always get raped. WHY are we asking for it by being strong, capable, and unwilling to fall into stereotypical roles mapped out for us in the 40s and 50s. This is the *&%$(%*$) 21st Century. We shouldn't have to be fighting this fight anymore. This makes me sad and sick and just enraged all at the same time. This rant made me love you and your books all the more!

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:37:52 UTC 4 years ago

The fight may not be over, but we're gaining ground.

weasel_of_d00m

September 28 2012, 22:42:44 UTC 4 years ago

WTF is wrong with that person???

As we say in Russia, "I have no words left, only letters..."

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:38:00 UTC 4 years ago

I love that saying.

diabhol

September 28 2012, 23:12:00 UTC 4 years ago

If I agreed with this post any harder, I'd start mimic your genetic traits.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:38:10 UTC 4 years ago

...that is the best comment ever.

anghara

September 28 2012, 23:21:57 UTC 4 years ago

AWESOME. This. Exactly this. Rape is not a condition of Being Female - or at the very least it should not be one to the point that your protagonist appears to assume that it is. Well said.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:38:22 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you.

lassarina

September 28 2012, 23:23:10 UTC 4 years ago

I am completely floored that anyone thought this was an appropriate question to ask, and I am so glad that you have taken this stance. Thank you.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:38:32 UTC 4 years ago

You are very welcome.

m_barnette

September 28 2012, 23:23:38 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  September 28 2012, 23:27:05 UTC

I doubt ANYONE would demand a strong female lead character be raped if they've been written by a male author. This sort of sexist stupidity is beyond annoying and is, as pointed out in other posts, inappropriate. I applaud your response to such a blatantly moronic question and the concept that 'all women who stand up for themselves must be raped for that crime.' I've seen this mentality voiced far too often, sadly, in real life as well as in fiction.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:38:48 UTC 4 years ago

Sadly, I doubt they'd have to demand.

archangelbeth

September 28 2012, 23:31:10 UTC 4 years ago

I, for one, am happy to have a No Rape Here sticker for the books. The body-count is hard enough for me, generally speaking!

(...telepathic predator humanoid wasp/cuckoo is the sort of creature that, if she were mean, would go into dark alleys, cooing, "Here, mugger, mugger, mugger" whenever she wanted spare change. That she might be victimized...? I mean, COME ON WHAT I DON'T EVEN!)

scarybaldguy

September 28 2012, 23:56:16 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  September 28 2012, 23:57:52 UTC

Seriously. I posted in my own LJ that if any goombah were stupid enough to corner Toby, Verity, Sarah, etc in the obligatory dark alley and start to make comments along the lines of "Wot 'ave we 'ere?" and "Oi loiks a gel wiv sperrit", said goombah would be experiencing the sensation of being strangled with a garrote made from his small intestine in about 3.4 seconds.

ETA: Also, anyone stupid enough to try anything with Verity in her apartment? The mice. They remember everything. I can't even imagine what they would do to any defiler of The High Priestess Of Cheese And Cake.

archangelbeth

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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damiri

September 28 2012, 23:34:45 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you very very much for NOT writing about rape. It is a very upsetting topic in many ways, and who wants to be upset in their leisure time?

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:39:17 UTC 4 years ago

Exactly.

yaysunshine.dreamwidth.org

September 28 2012, 23:48:52 UTC 4 years ago

This post is good and you should feel good about it, and also I know what books I'm taking on my next road trip. Seriously, you have articulated so well how I feel about this issue, so thank you for writing this. I only lament that it's necessary to say at all.

seanan_mcguire

September 29 2012, 15:39:34 UTC 4 years ago

Agreed.

fayanora

September 29 2012, 00:15:10 UTC 4 years ago

That man's reality tunnel is a dark, creepy, and deeply disturbing place. And I normally like dark and creepy places. o_O

I think that man needs to experience being raped. I have a friend with a dildo the size of her arm, that we can start him on. *evil grin*

I understand your position as well, whole-heartedly. None of my characters have been raped, though one of them survived an attempted rape and attack with a knife as a child and used that experience to inspire "her" (Nokwahl's people are hermaphrodites) to be a bad-ass detective. Even after finding her attacker and bringing him to justice, it still affects her. It was a decision not taken lightly.

Another character, Lyria, faced some boys who wanted to rape her when she was a young teen, but they didn't get far before she hexed them. One of the boys she hexed died. Lyria takes crap from NO ONE.

mouseycat

September 29 2012, 12:58:51 UTC 4 years ago

-cough- No one needs to experience rape. Ever. Not even as a learning experience. It's too damn cruel.

museclio

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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drcpunk

4 years ago

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