Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire
  • Mood: disappointed
  • Music: Garbage, "Celebrity Skin."

Things I will not do to my characters. Ever.

Tags: cranky blonde is cranky, don't be dumb
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wendyzski

September 30 2012, 18:51:03 UTC 4 years ago


I linked to this from my Face book wall and had to use the Hammer of Bannination on a young woman who insisted on turning it into an argument that the one-in-six stat wasn't accurate, and that it shouldn't include women who are raped more than once, and that if a rape victim didn't report it it's not "really rape".. i was appalled to hear that kind of dreck from a young woman who has been lucky enough not to experience that kind of assault.

I'm not sure which made me feel more ill - the original question that prompted this post or that kind of response from a supposedly educated woman.

seanan_mcguire

September 30 2012, 18:56:57 UTC 4 years ago

I. She. WHAT.

She's right: it's NOT accurate, because the number is probably closer to ONE IN FOUR.

Arrgh.

wendyzski

4 years ago

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pocketnaomi

4 years ago

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aetas_lupus

September 30 2012, 19:05:23 UTC 4 years ago

If I wanted to read about rape, I'd find a fanfic. There's no reason why rape should be used as a plot device at all... It happens way to often IRL, why, unless you're an insecure asshole, would you want to read about it? If you're a rape victim and you read about someone who was but the majority is how they got past that is one thing...

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:02:38 UTC 4 years ago

If I wanted to read about rape, I'd find a fanfic.

Yes. This.

ethelmay

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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aetas_lupus

4 years ago

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seanan_mcguire

4 years ago

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Ali Trotta

September 30 2012, 19:26:02 UTC 4 years ago

I honestly have no words, except vaguely intelligible noises of outrage. I cannot believe that question was asked. I just can't.

Thank you for such a brilliant response/post.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:02:47 UTC 4 years ago

You are very welcome.

sweetmusic_27

September 30 2012, 19:29:36 UTC 4 years ago

Holy shit 600 comments. I've been trying to figure out what to say, and it makes me so ANGRY that I haven't got anything on the actual big issue at all. All that's there is a big cloud of "THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE WORLD," and I can't really separate that out into coherent thought yet.

But here's my most coherent thought, and there are so many comments that someone may have said the exact same thing four pages ago.

1 in 6 men is diagnosed with prostate cancer. You sure as fuck don't see THAT in a lot of male protagonists. Lots of men are victims of domestic abuse, and you don't see THAT in a lot of male protagonists. Why has this one terrible act become a defining trope in female protagonists, and why did we allow it to become some kind of shorthand? And what is it shorthand FOR? 'This woman has been through a lot and now she is strong?' Somehow, I don't think that's really it.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:16:32 UTC 4 years ago

That's an excellent point. I've never seen anyone advocating for more prostate cancer in UF.

weirdsister

September 30 2012, 20:09:18 UTC 4 years ago

My advice to the person who posed that question to you: "Seek therapy."

Also, you rock.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:17:21 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you.

elvnsword

September 30 2012, 20:44:42 UTC 4 years ago

I honestly dislike the idea "writing rape" I have seen it used and every time it just sucks the enjoyment out of the comic/book/movie for me.
Speaking for myself, I am glad you don't write that kinda of cliche... that's what it is, a cliche. Enjoy the backbone and the strength you
obviously have written into these characters. Some people appreciate it immensely.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:17:32 UTC 4 years ago

I am very glad to know that.

sinboy

September 30 2012, 21:00:59 UTC 4 years ago

Ugh. Attitudes like that are not only creepy, they re-enforce rape culture. I recommend a prophylactic Hothead Paisan reading.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:17:40 UTC 4 years ago

YES THIS.

Ta Dah

sinboy

4 years ago

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ladypoetess

September 30 2012, 21:31:30 UTC 4 years ago

I have a story where one of my characters is raped - twice - within the first few chapters. Not to make it 'edgy' or to create a way to make her 'strong and driven' - but as a way to emotionally damage her enough to where previously unthinkable actions and choices become acceptable life goals. She's not a "good guy" in the traditional sense - she does a lot of things that are plainly 'evil' in society, but in her mind, twisted as it has become, they are things that seem not only acceptable but right. It's hard to write in many, many ways, not the least of which is needing to walk away from the story for a day or two after writing a rape scene because it's sickening to have to plot it out and then enact it in words on the page. But, in the context of what I'm writing, it's also appropriate.

In most stories? Not appropriate, not necessary, and plainly a lazy way out. I applaud you for standing up for yourself and your characters and not writing what you feel you don't and shouldn't need to.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:17:55 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you.

polenth

September 30 2012, 21:38:21 UTC 4 years ago

I read spoilers for books with female main characters, especially in genres like urban fantasy, so I can avoid ones where she's raped. I didn't used to, but it got too much. I don't want the constant message that any woman who is adventurous will be raped, because she deserves to be raped. That authors don't realise they're putting across this message just makes it more disturbing.

Also notable that people saying the character must be raped never say she should lose a hand, be blinded or receive any other major injury. Even though when you're fighting monsters, chances of injury are likely to be much higher than being raped.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:18:24 UTC 4 years ago

Yeah, that bothers me, too. I've seen people get really angry when UF heroines are somehow "deformed," and yet rape? Not a problem.

phoenix_singing

4 years ago

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pocketnaomi

September 30 2012, 21:38:49 UTC 4 years ago

Very simply:

The world needs more fiction with strong female characters doing interesting things.

The world does not particularly need more fiction in which strong female characters get taken down a peg for being uppity, by men whose job it is to put them in their place via rape.

Sometimes, it's better to write the way things should be, the way we're working toward making them be, instead of the way they are. I suppose as things stand, it probably is "unrealistic" to write worlds in which nobody gets raped, because of the statistics you mention. In a similar vein, it's also probably unrealistic to write worlds in which nobody gets cancer, suffers from hemmorrhoids, or anything else that has a reasonable likelihood of happening in the real world. I don't see anybody complaining that they don't get to read about those in every SF or fantasy novel out there. I have to believe the only reason anyone is complaining about this one is that they do not consider a world to be an improvement if women are free, in said world, to go around kicking ass without being punished for it by the Author God by being raped. And that they can't bear the thought that such a world might become a tad more likely, if we're free to read about it and take inspiration therefrom.

Thank you for offering us that inspiration. The fact that such people still exist is exactly the reason why we need it.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:18:35 UTC 4 years ago

I am trying.

pocketnaomi

4 years ago

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jacedraccus

September 30 2012, 21:43:46 UTC 4 years ago

A while back I read something that may help explain the problem. Unfortunately I did not make note of where I read it, so I cannot link. You may have read it though.

Anyways, the crux of the article was basically that rapists think that all men are like them, just that some of us hide it better or manage not to get caught. Or something. Maybe they don't think it consciously. But this is another reason why rape jokes are damaging: they make rapists comfortable. "Hey, they think that's funny! These are my kinda people."

It makes me sick, but I can't help but think that there's some connection to the way that your questioner thinks it's more realistic if one of your girls gets raped. Because he thinks rape is normal. Blah.

On the other hand, I've heard your name but never got around to looking into your work before. I really should have.

You had me at 'ambush predator telepath'.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:19:18 UTC 4 years ago

Yeah, I've seen that argument, and it upsets me, largely because I think it's probably right in a lot of cases. And I hate that we have to think that way.

If you like ambush predator telepaths, you'll love Sarah.

jacedraccus

4 years ago

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tygerversionx

September 30 2012, 22:01:35 UTC 4 years ago

I'm glad I read through the comments (mostly) before adding one of my own, as to give myself a sort of center for this.

As a guy who has gone through that sort of experience, I will admit that certain scenes and situations in your Toby books (or hell, even Feed-verse), have that emotional resonance for me. They're molestations of the mind, or very difficult obstacles to overcome for the characters, but they're not physical rape. I mean, perhaps it's telling about me that I translate a lot of the mental trauma your characters go through into a short-hand of them having just survived a "mental rape attempt." But I've been so glad that a lot of those tricks get seen through, dealt with, or defeated, generally with the help of friends. Toby's issues with trust and attraction (both romantically and just ... with people, even as friends) are so familiar to me that reading Toby (and a lot of other great characters in other book series, etc) feels like as she discovers new ways of thinking about things I'm doing the same. That's just great writing.

It bugs me, as a lot of others have said, that somehow rape becomes just a check-mark on the list of "things that happen." The "when" not "if." But, as others have said, I believe your an author that COULD handle the topic with respect and depth.

But I'll be just fine for 10 more Toby books of "just" mortal danger and lots of coffee and friends who are sarcastic with each other because they care. And I'm apparently missing out on the InCryptid series? So I may have to do something about that. Someone said something about military-grade-cute mice? That's intriguing enough for me.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:19:48 UTC 4 years ago

The mice are awesome.

Trust me on this one.

windandstardust

4 years ago

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I Don’t Mean Canola

livejournal

October 1 2012, 01:22:41 UTC 4 years ago

User calendula_witch referenced to your post from I Don’t Mean Canola saying: [...] 8217;s the matter with you, why aren’t your characters getting raped like they should be? [...]

T1G3RL1LY

October 1 2012, 01:33:13 UTC 4 years ago

Clapping Video expresses perfect salute :)

Rape is an hateful, horrid, foul thing to do to a person. Want to read about it? Go read the news or true crime fiction. Go get therapy.

Don't presume to tell an author to write about it because it's "realistic." In fact, never tell an author what to write, how to write or why to write.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:19:59 UTC 4 years ago

Agreed.

onyxlynxx

October 1 2012, 02:17:56 UTC 4 years ago

Projection much? Did you tell this guy to keep his creepy rape fantasies to himself?

I don't know if you have seen this but clearly the stupid escaped from FB long enough to ask the question.

http://www.facebook.com/kirby.b.kerr?ref=tn_tnmn#!/photo.php?fbid=474611045905476&set=a.403179193048662.97985.403176179715630&type=1&theater

And in case you needed an extra smile after that, here are some other dumb things people say to writers:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=287425114696883&set=a.165335620239167.28676.165296993576363&type=1&theater


seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:20:31 UTC 4 years ago

GO STEWIE GO.

Some of the things people will say to writers astound me.

arison

October 1 2012, 02:52:10 UTC 4 years ago

Super impressed with your ability to write such a calm, well-thought response to that. Bravo.
Super not impressed with the thought process behind asking that question in the first place.

Thank you for being an author I can trust to not toss in an "and then she was raped" into the middle of a story. I like my trigger warnings where I can see them.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:20:44 UTC 4 years ago

You are very welcome.

catness

October 1 2012, 03:27:01 UTC 4 years ago

Hi. I don't know you or know your work, but I just bought one of your books on Amazon, because of this post. Thanks! I look forward to reading this and learning about your characters, since I've already learned some about your character. :)

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:20:55 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you!

ambermoon

October 1 2012, 03:58:31 UTC 4 years ago

What the fuck . . . I am very glad I don't normally have to interact with people like that. I am sorry that you do.

I admit I tweaked hard at Toby's encounter in ALH - especially with the admission it was deliberate ("Do you have any control?") I basically regarded it as the magical equivalent of slipping something in someone's drink. I was really glad the attempt was not successful. I liked the scene later on when she figures out she also would have died, and everyone who knew would have let it happen, and walks out and bursts into tears, because that's exactly how I'd react. (My own experiences have been to pretty much the same extent - kissed when I didn't want to be, both times was able to get the hell out. I'm lucky to be one of the statistical five, and it's a truly fucked up world in which the term is "lucky.") I've been glad that character has not reappeared, because he makes me very uncomfortable - but of course he should if it's story-appropriate, or any other reason you might have, because it's YOUR story.

I've spent time worrying and conjecturing about what awful things are going to happen to Toby in future books, but I'm very glad I don't have to worry about rape being one of them. Thank you, very much, for this post.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:21:19 UTC 4 years ago

You are very welcome.

elialshadowpine

October 1 2012, 04:07:58 UTC 4 years ago

Brava!

Sadly, it's a huge problem in SFF genre fiction (I can't speak for others I don't know as well). Up front: I am a woman, and a rape survivor. It wasn't until my mid-20s that I realized that I was writing the vast majority of my female characters with rape backgrounds or who got raped in the story, because I had internalized "well, that's realistic" (probably because it's what happened to women characters in the vast majority of SFF I read growing up, even from ostensibly feminist authors like Marion Zimmer Bradley). Upon realizing that, I was horrified, and have started thinking much more actively about what is necessary to my characters and their growth.

But the sheer gall of asking the author such a question is just whacked beyond belief.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:21:52 UTC 4 years ago

It's horrifying to me how much we've normalized rape, and rape attempts, in our stories. It really is.

elialshadowpine

4 years ago

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paksenarrion2

October 1 2012, 04:08:28 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you for saying this I do not understand—I will not understand, I refuse to understand—why rape has to be on the table for every story with a female protagonist, or even a strong female supporting cast. Why it's so assumed that I'm being "unrealistic" when I say that none of my female characters are going to be raped. Why this "takes the tension out of the story." There is plenty of tension without me having to write about something that upsets both me and many of my readers, thanks.

There are still so many people out there that JUST DON'T GET IT. Female characters don't need to suffer the trauma of rape to grow as a character/explain why she is an evil person/just because. There are plenty of things writers can do to their characters-female/male/trans*/asexual-that don't include rape if they want angst/horrific things to happen to them to make character growth occur. Frankly I find it lazy writing1 at best and misogynistic at worst and refuse to read it.

And you have just shot into a tie as my favorite author (you were in second place) because of how well you articulated on this issue.

1-with the caveat that there are some stories that need to be told by survivors or are handled in a way that is necessary for the story. Those stories are fine, I just choose not to read them as a survivor but would never tell anyone else they cannot.

Icon directed at the person that asked the question. May he fall face first into a pile of excrement covered Legos.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:22:57 UTC 4 years ago

FLAMES FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE.

I love that movie so hard.

And yes, this, exactly. I would never say "you cannot write this story." That story may need to be written, and it may be yours to write. But neither should anyone say "you must write this story." That's just...

It's gross.

paksenarrion2

4 years ago

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trialia

4 years ago

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paksenarrion2

4 years ago

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Danielle Loubser

October 1 2012, 05:44:05 UTC 4 years ago

You are my new heroine. thank you for moving me with your honest and justified rant at the idiocy that has invaded so much literature, and clearly also some readers. >.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:23:13 UTC 4 years ago

You are very welcome, and welcome here.

spastasmagoria

October 1 2012, 08:11:29 UTC 4 years ago

I don't even understand human beings.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:35:16 UTC 4 years ago

Neither do I.

RonJeffries

October 1 2012, 11:29:17 UTC 4 years ago

Jerks, idiots, fools. Ignore them.

The good news is, until I read this, via a twitter link via wndxlori via loren beukes, I didn't know you were out there.

Ordered two Kindle books, first of each series.

Do not have your characters raped, that's my advice. Not only for your reasons but because I've never seen it improve a story.

Rock on,

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:35:30 UTC 4 years ago

Welcome!

pagesbs

October 1 2012, 12:08:15 UTC 4 years ago

Even the fact that the questioner thought this was a legitimate question to ask (and the follow up comment/attitude) indicates how far we have to go. That the attitude of intolerance & fear of women still exists is one of the reasons why rape still exists.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:35:40 UTC 4 years ago

Agreed.

la_marquise_de_

October 1 2012, 14:27:25 UTC 4 years ago

Applauds.
Women are strong. We don't only get that way as a result of trauma. Rape is not, in fact, necessary for believability.
None of my female characters are going to be raped as a motivation, either. I'm not playing that game.

seanan_mcguire

October 1 2012, 17:35:51 UTC 4 years ago

Good on you.
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