Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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Some thoughts about gender and literature.

First off: my beloved catvalente has written a heartbreaking essay about sexism in geek and science fiction/fantasy culture. You should read it, because it is relevant. Also because it is heartbreaking and true. Having been one of those female fantasy authors threatened with sexual violence because I dared to own cats who came from a breeder, and not a shelter, I can testify that things get really ugly, really fast, on Captain Internet.

And so...

Last weekend at Emerald City, I saw a sign that infuriated me. I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. It was a big banner on the front of a self-published* author's booth, reading, "Finally, a book for BOYS that the GIRLS will enjoy reading, too!"

Oh. You mean unlike 90% of the well-regarded "classic" science fiction, fantasy, and young adult genre novels out there? And 98% of the horror? And 99% of the military science fiction? And, let's face it, the majority of anything that's not a romance, a story about princesses, or a horse book? As a girl who grew up reading Bradbury, King, Wyndham, Anthony, Asprin, Piper, Foster, Knight, Shakespeare, Poe, De Lint, Baum, superhero comics, and horror comics, I cry thee foul.

And no, this is not a case of me carefully editing out the female authors of my childhood. After wracking my brain, the only ones I could come up with who even managed to compete for my affections—who were writing stories with girls, rather than girl stories, and were thus worth reading in my twelve-year-old estimation—were McCaffrey, Kagan, Tiptree (who wrote as a man), Pini (whose writing still gets credited to her husband by about half the people I talk to), Jones, Duane, and McKinley.

I discovered more female authors as I got older. Emma Bull. Pamela Dean. Jody Lynn Nye. Women who were writing stories with girls, not girl stories; women who were building the foundations of a new genre, filled with interesting, clever, intuitive characters who yes, sometimes happened to have the same plumbing I did. And sometimes they didn't, and that was okay, too. But—and this is where we loop back to the beginning—it didn't matter. If I wanted to read, I needed to read books about boys. Books that were probably intended by their authors as being for boys. If I wanted to enjoy reading, I needed to enjoy books for boys.

If this has changed at all, that change has happened in the last eight to ten years, beginning with the publication of Twilight. People were writing books for girls before that, but there's always a trigger event, and Bella Swan making millions of dollars for her author (and publisher) was the trigger for a veritable flood of "girl books" hitting the shelves. These were books with female leads, with women on the covers, with a stronger romance subplot than had necessarily been required in YA before people figured out that hey, girls read, and maybe some of them will read more if you offer them female characters to read about.

Since then, the number of "girl books" has exploded, and while some of them are girl stories, some of them are also stories with girls. Some of these books are romances. Some of them are not. Some of them are medical thrillers, adventures, war stories, epic fantasies, distopian futures, cyberpunk, steampunk, mythpunk, modern day, anything you can think of. Because they are stories. And yet somehow, the fact that they have girls on the cover makes them not worth reading. The fact that the main characters have to squat when they pee makes them untenable to half the population. The fact that their authors grew up being told that real science fiction, fantasy, horror, and adventure starred men doing manly things in a manly way, and yet grew up to write books about women doing the same things, does not prove that literature can be a gender neutral experience where story matters more than anything else; it proves that we need more books for BOYS that GIRLS will enjoy, too. It means that the girls keep on coming second, that we keep being the deviation, and not the norm.

I do dislike the fact that right now, sexy girls pout at me from the covers of almost every book in the YA section, because I know that culturally, we discourage boys from reading those books, and damn, they are missing out. But I also dislike the fact that I'm expected to be totally a-okay with teenage girls reading books covered in muscular men with giant guns, while sneering at teenage boys reading books with thoughtful-looking women on the covers. We say "don't judge a book by its cover" like it's a Commandment, and then we turn around and tell boys not to read books with girls on them, or books with pink on them, or anything that doesn't look macho enough.

If I could read Little Fuzzy, you can read Partials. If I could read Myth Adventures, you can read The Chemical Garden. There will always be some stories that appeal to us more than others, but when we start saying "this book is for BOYS but don't worry, GIRLS can read it, too" vs. "icky GIRL BOOK is ICKY and NOT FOR BOYS," we create a division in our literature that doesn't need to be there, and frankly, upsets me.

Let's all just read the books we want to read, regardless of covers or the gender of the main characters, okay? Because otherwise, we're missing out on a lot of really great stories. And that would be a shame.

(*This is relevant only because it implies no editorial oversight. If I were to try using a slogan like this, my editors, and my agent, would politely make me stop.)
Tags: contemplation, cranky blonde is cranky, reading things, so the marilyn
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Hear, hear!
<3
As an adult, I can reflect on multiple issues in the Belgariad and Mallorean book series that I didn't pick up on as a kid. But it's still my favorite series, and the one I read over and over and over. It had issues, but it also had incredible female characters. It had the standard makings of a male-driven, male-audience fantasy series, but it was very readable, easy to connect to, and immersive for me as a child.

Most of the books have 'David Eddings' in big letters across the top, because I have first print runs. I don't know if they still do, because in the 1990s, David's wife, Leigh Eddings, was finally officially credited as a co-author, which she had been since his early books.

Nearly every book, if not all of them, that was published up until his death had 'David and Leigh Eddings' on the cover.

It's not the reason I still read and love the books, but it's a big one.
It's a good one.
"Finally, a book for BOYS that the GIRLS will enjoy reading, too!"

Oh, god. I know this book/author - er, of this book/author, I mean. I have seen the booth several times at the LA Festival of Books, and that slogan always makes me roll my eyes. Except when it makes me want to smash things. (I think the first year I saw it was the year Rick Riordan came? which made it especially FAIL.)

The financial and very public success of Twilight - and now The Hunger Games - often has me thinking of this bit from a Sor Juana Inez de la Cruz poem:

"There in Egypt, all the sages/by a woman were convinced
That gender is not of the essence/in matters of intelligence.
Victor! Victor!
A victory, a miracle; though more prodigious than the feat
Of conquering, was surely that the men themselves declared defeat."

There have always been girls reading adventure stories, girls having adventures in stories, and stories about girls that boys have read - the problem is that they tend to be unacknowledged/underacknowledged* by the gatekeepers/larger culture - and then forgotten and lost. (and therefore there are also fewer of them)

*like, say, all the A Wrinkle in Time tribute articles that talk about it being a scifi book starring a girl and completely miss the part where, by being the first scifi book to win the Newbery, it was also the book that prompted the gatekeepers of children's lit to finally acknowledge that scifi (for children) could be more than just popular reading material. Which seems rather just as important. Especially when, by focusing on the main character being a girl and the supposed lack of girls to follow in Meg's footsteps, they then cast A Wrinkle in Time as an anomaly rather than a trendsetter.
I so so so wanted to go up and tell him why his sign was bad and wrong.

So so so wanted.
*musing* I thought "Andre" was a girl's name for aaaaaages. Same with the spelling of "Marion." (What do you mean, it's not Maid Marion? What's a vowel among friends? >_> )

I'm with you. People should be reading all the things. (Though I never tried to read all of a library, alas. I made some pretty serious inroads on the Heinline section of a public school library, one summer, though.)
Agreed.
I recently came in after a morning of doing proper manly work around my homestead, digging holes, clearing fallen trees with a chainsaw, and loading a 500 pound chunk of discarded 1950's technology onto a trailer for later disposal. Then I settled down for lunch, eating with one hand and reading with the other. The book I was reading had a girl on the cover, and what little she was wearing was pink, except for the weapons.

My reading preferences have never been based on the sex* of the author or the characters. The story is everything. Male, female, neither, both, alternating, not applicable, none of that matters to me. I have my genre-based preferences, but I'll step outside of those if a story has the right hook. I've read and enjoyed what would have been nothing more than a fairly tame romance if not for the fact the main character is a solitary werewolf. I couldn't identify with her plumbing, but I could identify with being an outsider. There wasn't even any real action, except for one death off-camera and in flashback.

Characterization is important, too, but I'll read about the worst kind of stereotypical cardboard cutout characters if there is a good enough story wrapped around them. Then again, I'm a reading addict, and if I haven't had my fix I'll read anything.

*Yes, I'm old. Back when I was learning the basics of language, words had gender, people had sex.
Thank you.

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

Come to think of it, I've seen remarks disparaging the Discount Armageddon cover, and they inevitably discuss the color palette. Pink isn't my favorite color, and it annoys me that it's code for "this is for you, as a girl!" but other women are allowed to wear and like it. I didn't think anything of it. But, if you're afraid of getting icky Girl Things on you, I suppose it may be a deterrent.

Good thing your readers are smarter than to think Verity is a helpless girly-girl based on what color she's wearing on the cover. Clearly, enough of them Got It to get you up on the Bestseller list.
I think he chose the color in part because it stood out so well. I am hugely pleased with that cover.

alicetheowl

5 years ago

phoenixsansfyr

5 years ago

alicetheowl

5 years ago

I was talking to someone yesterday, and I spluttered when he asked, "The Hunger Games? Isn't that like, a book for girls?" I was all "No! It's for everyone! It's an adventure!"
Of course, then he was all, "You mean like Choose Your Own Adventure?" and I facepalmed quietly. I sometimes forget that many people are not actually into books like I am.

Yay for "Let's all just read the books we want to read." THERE is a slogan to promote.
That being said, I would totally read a Choose your own Hunger Games Adventure book.

oneminutemonkey

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

The flood of girl books hitting the shelves makes me so happy. And the reaction against it is so, so telling.

Some of the girl books hitting the shelves are crap and/or send the wrong message about what a woman should (not) be, and the number of books that fit one or both of those have increased in the wake of Twilight's success. I remember L.J. Smith's books in the 1990s. Good stuff!

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

Fab post, Seanan.

As an aside, I'm planning a future blog post on my other journal, glitter_n_gore, about The Hunger Games, particularly the pressure put on Katniss (at least in the first book/movie) to fake a romance so that in-universe audience would like her, and the (I feel) glaring irony of a huge chunk of the fandom in the Peeta vs. Gale shipping wars. Can I link back to this?
I know I'd like to read that post, and will be friending you so I can read it.

rhoda_rants

5 years ago

alicetheowl

5 years ago

glitter_n_gore

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

I think sometimes I don't appreciate how lucky I was to discover Tamora Pierce at an early enough age for her to climb inside my head and tell me what to expect from fantasy. I certainly didn't notice at the time how unusual what she was doing was (so many male authors getting more of my attention at the time) - and now there's a whole city built around her, of YA authors who write amazing, powerful and magical stories for girls that don't suck. This is a great time!

My seven year old daughter who loves superheroes and Doctor Who and pretends not to like pink (though she secretly does) brings me great joy, but I wince as well when she turns away from things she deems 'too girly' because while indeed many of the pink and glittery fairy chapter books are badly written and not as GOOD as the Roald Dahl books she laps up, I hate the idea that she might grow up with a dismissive attitude towards stories aimed at girls, or other girls in general.

So, oddly, I heave a little sigh of relief when she puts on a Barbie movie, not because she's conforming to gender expectations, but because she's including them in her pop culture mix. Even if she likes Doctor Who, Teen Titans and Justice League cartoons way better. (hard to blame her for that)

And in the mean time, I am writing my girl superheroes on the moon chapter books as fast as I can, before she grows up! And getting my strategic copies of Diana Wynne Jones & Tamora Pierce novels ready to leave casually around the house, a year or two before I think she's ready for them.
And Jo Clayton when she gets old enough, especially the Skeen series.

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

Hmm.. see, I prefer just reading books that are good.

I've typically avoided reading most books that are romances, because I don't tend to like them. I also avoid most mysteries, too :)


However, I've been reading a few books that have gotten buzz in the Romance side, - the Miller / Lee books, Gail Carriger, and even more from the more recent urban fantasy / gothic books, and many have major female characters.


Moon, Mccaffrey, Lackey vs Weber. All just good, fun books :) All w/ a bunch of books w/ female leads. Some written by a girl, some by a guy. Same w/ books with male leads, written by a girl, vs written by a guy.

I'm happy to read 'em all :)


On the other hand, when Brokeback Mountain was out: I didn't watch the movie because it was a *gay* romance, but because it was a *romance*.

I don't like the classic Austen's, etc because they're books for girls (everyone knows girls are icky!) , but because they're boring in most cases :)
I totally understand avoiding a genre. It's avoiding a gender that irks me.
I am always grateful that I seemed to grow up entirely oblivious to gender bias. I'm not saying it wasn't there, from the annoyingly frilly Sunday dresses, to the fact that I was bullied mercilessly in middleschool, all on the basis of being to smart and not wearing the right clothes.
But I never made the distinction of I must do X because I'm a girl. This I think left my fantasy world wonderfully open to me. I watched X-Men Cartoons and rooted for Pheonix (Silly Jean Grey was too repressed), I owned TMNT toys. I watched Star Trek NG and wrote my own fanfiction for it at age 11. I was never told "you can't" simply because of gender.
Thinking back now, I think the first book I ever read that had a 'strong female lead' was "the Secret Garden". Even though she was portrayed as selfish and rude and 'acting out of her station' I just remembered finding a story about a girl who refused to stay 'out of trouble' and instead had amazing adventures. That was always my dream, to someday have amazing adventures.
It saddens me to think that we've suddenly hit a new rise in our culture where not JUST men, but a portion of society that feels a need to enforce some sort of status quo is now turning to kids, and saying. "For your moral safety, we must INSIST you color within the lines'. Not only is that damningly oppressive, but it's telling a whole generation of kids to sacrifice who they are, and all they COULD be, to fit a social type.

If I had a megaphone to say to kids everywhere, it would be NEVER compromise who you are. NEVER settle. You can do ANYTHING you want. Boy girl gay straight transgender. YOU are amazing.
If I had a megaphone to say to kids everywhere, it would be NEVER compromise who you are. NEVER settle. You can do ANYTHING you want. Boy girl gay straight transgender. YOU are amazing.

Fucking WORD.
I grew up reading Andre Norton, Anne McCaffery and C. J. Cherryh and other 'girl authors' because my mother and stepfather loved and read their books. For the record--in case you didn't know--Andre was a woman. I met her years ago and had a long conversation about scifi and fantasy with her. She wrote everything under the sun in fantasy and sf including military SF but had to do so under a male name because no publisher would accept those kinds of books from a female author at that time. Only men wrote those types of stories. (We're talking the 1940s through the early 70s here.)

I've seen a few male authors lambasting women sf authors for daring to include romantic themes in their books which is a damn shame since the stories are, in many ways, superior to those being told my the majority of male authors IMO. With male authors there's just too much of what I call 'names on a blank stage' because the stories lack even the simplest descriptions of the characters or anything that helps create a mental impression of the scene.

Unfortunately, something these male authors don't seem to grasp is this simple fact: Almost every scifi movie that's been in the top money makers for their time have had a romance at their core. Look at films like The Fifth Element, the Matrix Trilogy, Star Wars, Soldier, Avatar etc and at their core they are all romances as are most classic western films.

This isn't because, as one author put it, 'movie makers are trying to gain female viewers'. IMO it's because men want love too, they're just not willing to admit it.

Ever look at those reports on the reading public? I have. According to the last one I saw, 60% of all books are purchased by women. This didn't take into account the upsurge in ebooks and the readers that go with them.

Now we get down to why I think most of these male authors are so steamed. I personally think it's because they can't adapt to a changing literary world and are lashing out because of their own inability to capture the evolving market.

But that's just my opinion.
Men getting pissy about female authors has been going on for centuries. Early in the 19th Century, Nathaniel Hawthorne referred to the many female writers being published as "a d—d mob of scribbling women". To quote a text from the class I'm taking, Women in U.S. History, "Hawthorne’s irritation had a great deal to do with the fact that The Lamplighter, the novel by twenty-seven-year-old Maria Cummins that inspired his outburst, sold four times as many copies in the first month as The Scarlet Letter sold in Hawthorne’s lifetime."

m_barnette

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

Well said. Until the day books become living creatures and start reproducing sexually, there is no such thing as a 'boy book' or a 'girl book'. They're just books. Period, end of story.
Yes.

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

I'm curious- was the author very young? young enough to not remember how things were for older generations?
Nope. My mother's age.
Hope, maybe? When I Was a Soldier by Valerie Zenatti is one of the most popular choices amongst my students- of both genders- when they do book projects for my class. This is the book cover
Okay, that is awesome.
"Let's all just read the books we want to read . . ." Well, of course! Why would that be hard to understand?
People are weird.
Geeks being mean to each other? Oh yeah, especially if the ones being spat on are women. I just don't get how people STILL act this way. Of course, I don;t get how we are still having conversations about birth control either, or the fact that women are just like farm animals. Urglbleeeurgh.
I don't get it, either.
After wracking my brain, the only ones I could come up with who even managed to compete for my affections—who were writing stories with girls, rather than girl stories, and were thus worth reading in my twelve-year-old estimation—were McCaffrey, Kagan, Tiptree (who wrote as a man), Pini (whose writing still gets credited to her husband by about half the people I talk to), Jones, Duane, and McKinley.

Really? Wow. The authors of my childhood were Andre Norton, Margaret Weiss, Mercedes Lackey, Heinlein, Tolkein, CL Moore and A.C. Crispin in that order. Yes, there are two guys in that list. I never liked Asimov, loved the poetry but but never connected with Bradbury, etc etc. Women have always dominated what I read.

Later I discovered my favorite author ever, CJ Cherryh, and many others like yourself :) My bookshelf is still 70% women if not more. I am so weirded out by this debate, and especially its longevity. I suspect its dominated by a few loudmouthed idiots -- that adjective often coming paired with that noun.
I discovered all of those a little later on, and they rocked my teenage world, but this was my pre-teen world.

And I am so, so pleased about your bookshelf.
I saw that sign and I made a conscious effort to avoid the table because I thought the phrasing was wrong somehow... you said it better than I could.
<3
Being older than you and growing up in the desert of virtually no female protagonists in sf, I have a slightly different viewpoint. Some writers wrote male protagonists that were male gendered and the fact of them being male was kinda obvious: guys written as pushy, smarmy, aggressive or the like that 'felt' like societal male viewpoints.

Other writers simply has guy protagonists because 'that's how the stories sold' and the sex of the character could have been male or female for the lack of difference the character's sex -really- made to a story. Andre Norton was a good example of this. Many characters were male, some were female - and their sex never really mattered to the story being told. [Maybe this is because Alice Mary Norton was female and telling fun stories.]

Possibly because it was the metaphorical dark ages of sf/f/h, I tended to be pathetically grateful to find -anything- in the speculative fiction realm to read and wasn't really bothered by the easily-over-written-in-my-mind [replacing protagonist with myself] sex of the main character as written.

Sex of the protagonist didn't seem to have a big narrative impact on the plot or writing until the 1970's - and by then there was enough written material that I could afford to be picky. So I see the speculative fiction genre as constantly improving, since it continues to expand and embrace new people and points of view.

Would I have rather had this earlier? You betcha! But in the main, I'm pretty happy about what I'm seeing now.
That's totally fair. But I still see marginalization and stigmatization, and I still feel the need to point it out.
Damn, I thought we already fought this fight. *sigh*
It never ends.
I remember getting picked on in the 11th grade because I brought a scifi-fantasy story into school that had a big buff guy on the cover. I can't remember the book title, but immediately one guy commented about Fabio on the cover and that set it all off. Of course I tried to make them see it wasn't romance but me actually replying only made it worse.

Boys aren't "supposed" to read "girl books", sure, but heaven forbid if a girl reads "boy books" like anything scifi or fantasy. It's so fucking stupid...
Seriously.
I can't even remember how my various childhood authors fell down in terms of gender, but I do remember the vast majority of protagonists being male. This... did have an effect on me; even now, when I am writing, I have to stop and think to myself "am I telling this story from the male character's pov because it is the best pov to use or because it's a subconscious default?"

Having so many new lady-centric books these days is just overwhelmingly awesome. I've got a wide range from romance to general lit to SFF, and so many ranges within that from light and fluffy (ILU, P.C. Cast) to grim and gritty (ILU, Kameron Hurley). It is of the deliciousness.
It really is. We've come a long way. Now I think we have to make sure we don't slip back into the dark.
Our bookshelves are pretty balanced, gender-wise. I have a tendency to like the female authors a bit more and Evil Rob has a tendency to like the male authors more—but that's primarily because he's fond of dense science fiction (hard science fiction of the Neal Stephenson/Kim Stanley Robinson stripe—not just tech-heavy, but dense with prose and cultural concepts) and I've got a couple of shelves' worth of Lackey, Huff, and other mass-producing female authors. He's the one that introduced me to Kate Elliot, though. And we're both having much fun with your books. (If you weren't giggling the entire time you wrote Discount Armageddon, you must have done so on a read-through. You had fun with that one.)

You know what? I read kids' books. I read romance. I read of-course-it's-literature-not-really-romance-we-swear. I read all sorts of despised genre novels along with some serious history. About the only thin I ignore is political science books because if it's any good, it will stick around long enough to make it into the history section. Telling me that something is a girls' book or a boys' book only encourages me to display my digital flexibility in a rude manner.

I really need to find a point to get textually angry because I keep thinking about it. I just don't seem to have the time (Kids? What kids? Oh, those kids...)
You and your husband make me happy.
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