Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

  • Mood:
  • Music:

Some thoughts about gender and literature.

First off: my beloved catvalente has written a heartbreaking essay about sexism in geek and science fiction/fantasy culture. You should read it, because it is relevant. Also because it is heartbreaking and true. Having been one of those female fantasy authors threatened with sexual violence because I dared to own cats who came from a breeder, and not a shelter, I can testify that things get really ugly, really fast, on Captain Internet.

And so...

Last weekend at Emerald City, I saw a sign that infuriated me. I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. It was a big banner on the front of a self-published* author's booth, reading, "Finally, a book for BOYS that the GIRLS will enjoy reading, too!"

Oh. You mean unlike 90% of the well-regarded "classic" science fiction, fantasy, and young adult genre novels out there? And 98% of the horror? And 99% of the military science fiction? And, let's face it, the majority of anything that's not a romance, a story about princesses, or a horse book? As a girl who grew up reading Bradbury, King, Wyndham, Anthony, Asprin, Piper, Foster, Knight, Shakespeare, Poe, De Lint, Baum, superhero comics, and horror comics, I cry thee foul.

And no, this is not a case of me carefully editing out the female authors of my childhood. After wracking my brain, the only ones I could come up with who even managed to compete for my affections—who were writing stories with girls, rather than girl stories, and were thus worth reading in my twelve-year-old estimation—were McCaffrey, Kagan, Tiptree (who wrote as a man), Pini (whose writing still gets credited to her husband by about half the people I talk to), Jones, Duane, and McKinley.

I discovered more female authors as I got older. Emma Bull. Pamela Dean. Jody Lynn Nye. Women who were writing stories with girls, not girl stories; women who were building the foundations of a new genre, filled with interesting, clever, intuitive characters who yes, sometimes happened to have the same plumbing I did. And sometimes they didn't, and that was okay, too. But—and this is where we loop back to the beginning—it didn't matter. If I wanted to read, I needed to read books about boys. Books that were probably intended by their authors as being for boys. If I wanted to enjoy reading, I needed to enjoy books for boys.

If this has changed at all, that change has happened in the last eight to ten years, beginning with the publication of Twilight. People were writing books for girls before that, but there's always a trigger event, and Bella Swan making millions of dollars for her author (and publisher) was the trigger for a veritable flood of "girl books" hitting the shelves. These were books with female leads, with women on the covers, with a stronger romance subplot than had necessarily been required in YA before people figured out that hey, girls read, and maybe some of them will read more if you offer them female characters to read about.

Since then, the number of "girl books" has exploded, and while some of them are girl stories, some of them are also stories with girls. Some of these books are romances. Some of them are not. Some of them are medical thrillers, adventures, war stories, epic fantasies, distopian futures, cyberpunk, steampunk, mythpunk, modern day, anything you can think of. Because they are stories. And yet somehow, the fact that they have girls on the cover makes them not worth reading. The fact that the main characters have to squat when they pee makes them untenable to half the population. The fact that their authors grew up being told that real science fiction, fantasy, horror, and adventure starred men doing manly things in a manly way, and yet grew up to write books about women doing the same things, does not prove that literature can be a gender neutral experience where story matters more than anything else; it proves that we need more books for BOYS that GIRLS will enjoy, too. It means that the girls keep on coming second, that we keep being the deviation, and not the norm.

I do dislike the fact that right now, sexy girls pout at me from the covers of almost every book in the YA section, because I know that culturally, we discourage boys from reading those books, and damn, they are missing out. But I also dislike the fact that I'm expected to be totally a-okay with teenage girls reading books covered in muscular men with giant guns, while sneering at teenage boys reading books with thoughtful-looking women on the covers. We say "don't judge a book by its cover" like it's a Commandment, and then we turn around and tell boys not to read books with girls on them, or books with pink on them, or anything that doesn't look macho enough.

If I could read Little Fuzzy, you can read Partials. If I could read Myth Adventures, you can read The Chemical Garden. There will always be some stories that appeal to us more than others, but when we start saying "this book is for BOYS but don't worry, GIRLS can read it, too" vs. "icky GIRL BOOK is ICKY and NOT FOR BOYS," we create a division in our literature that doesn't need to be there, and frankly, upsets me.

Let's all just read the books we want to read, regardless of covers or the gender of the main characters, okay? Because otherwise, we're missing out on a lot of really great stories. And that would be a shame.

(*This is relevant only because it implies no editorial oversight. If I were to try using a slogan like this, my editors, and my agent, would politely make me stop.)
Tags: contemplation, cranky blonde is cranky, reading things, so the marilyn
  • Post a new comment

    Error

    Anonymous comments are disabled in this journal

    default userpic

    Your reply will be screened

    Your IP address will be recorded 

  • 196 comments
Previous
← Ctrl ← Alt
Next
Ctrl → Alt →
Exactly.
Bah on humanity.
Yeah. Major marketing research failure resulting in that kind of blurb on a book cover.
Only he had no marketing; he chose that slogan himself, and it's an attitude I've been seeing a lot lately, especially as regards YA. "How dare these books not be FOR THE BOYS and allow the girls to read them" comes up over and over. So he's really speaking to a market.

branna

5 years ago

vixyish

5 years ago

admnaismith

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

I feel lucky that I "discovered" Andre Norton and Ray Bradbury at about the same time. (Also, a little later, Marion Zimmer Bradley and Gene Wolfe.) I'm sure I've read far more "books for boys" in my life but that's more about market saturation and an attempt on my part to read *everything* ( :-) ) than it is about paying attention to what I was supposed to be reading.
I tried to read my local library. The whole thing. I failed, but oh, what a wonderful experiment it was.

phillip2637

5 years ago

admnaismith

5 years ago

paksenarrion2

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

I had much the same experience growing up in the 70s and early 80s. I was lucky to find Andre Norton and other women SF/F writers early on, because I remember how hard it was to find books in the children's section that were adventures with female main characters. In so many of the kids' adventure stories at that time, the girls were either the load or the babysitter.
Seriously.

Deleted comment

Mayhap this will make you feel a tiny bit better.

On a recent trip home to New Hampshire, I came upon my aunt's husband (I have an aunt who is not much older than me) reading one of the Twilight books.

In public.

I am no fan of Twilight, but I have to admit this cheered me, as said spouse-of-aunt is a 38 year old manly man with a tractor, a gigantic boar's head mounted in (of all very weird places) the downstairs guest bathroom (he's...special), and a gun locker.

I might also mention that he's a butcher.

I mean this literally. I mean he chops animals so people can roast them up for a living. Which is a totally manly man job! (he does not, as far as I know, drive his tractor to work while wearing flannel and waving a gun, but it would not surprise me if I suggested he do this that he would think it was an awesome and manly idea.)

He has read: all of the Hunger Games books, the entire Twilight saga, and most of his wife's exensive collection of supernatural/fantasy/scifi YA fiction, most of which, as you noted, have pouty women on the cover.

He loves 'em.

So I think there is some hope for the human race.
I think the success of The Hunger Games will hopefully turn this around, although I live in fear of a hardcore Brony-type community springing up around the fandom (where it's cool not because it's cool, but because it was secretly meant for boys all along).

Your aunt's husband is awesome. Also, if he decides to do this awesome, manly thing with his tractor, I would like a ride.

aliciaaudrey

5 years ago

deire

5 years ago

archangelbeth

5 years ago

kaleidors

5 years ago

windbourne

5 years ago

jacylrin

5 years ago

aliciaaudrey

5 years ago

To be fair, there's Sir Pterry (and the Tiffany Aching stories in particular). But yeah, sexism is rampant in all aspects of culture. Hell, in life in general. A million years of evolution and it's still All About Teh Bewbs.
I didn't actually find him as a kid, sadly. But it's interesting to me that to get some people to read a female protagonist, she must be written by a man. Preferably one with a long track record of writing men. Or would Coraline have been critically as successful written by a female? Sadly, I suspect not.
Quoting your post -

Let's all just read the books we want to read, regardless of covers or the gender of the main characters, okay? Because otherwise, we're missing out on a lot of really great stories. And that would be a shame.

end quote.

And the only comment I can say about it, is 100% agreed.

I have read some very good books with a strong female main character and yes, the author definately was influenced by those whom came before and opened the way, (Like you are doing for those who will refer to you as their source of why they write in the future.) I don't pay attention as much to the cover, than that looks interesting than the blurb about the book. That makes a decision if I want to read the book and try a new author, not if its a pink cover or a female on the cover in a way that does not look macho.

The author and the story (and what I have read of theirs in the past, or have heard about) makes more of a different to me. Using your books as an example, I purchase your books partially because I want to read them due to good recommendations from people I trust in the fanish community and in the case of "Discount Armageddon", it really grabbed me with the blurb.

As for the person who self published with that dumb line, I would consider that a book (and possibly an author) to avoid.
Agreed.
both these posts are filled with awesome.
I am so glad.
Asterisk!
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Both that blog post and this one are wonderful.
I am glad you like them.

Deleted comment

If it helps, remember that most of the time authors have just about zero input on their covers, some asshole in a marketing office gets to make those decisions.

Once in a while they misfire so egregiously that the writer can muster enough public support for a cover change-- right now whitewashing black characters can sometimes be rectified. But that's still pretty rare overall. I wish it were more common.

Deleted comment

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

Yes, well said.
Thank you.
You say all the good things.
I try.
I have been reading SF (not all YA; #2 was "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress") since 1968 and have therefore seen this for a whole lot longer. Yea, you've hit it. The "default person" in darned near any form of literature is a white het male, and many authors do not deviate from this unless they have a compelling reason. Romance is often sufficient justification for a female character, but little else.

(Incidentally, I'm reading "Deadline" to my daughters -- trying not to read the F-word too often, but otherwise, they're eating it up -- no pun intended).
It's changing slowly. But so, so slowly...
I have had an ongoing conversation with my husband (who agrees with me) about why there are no romance-novel-equivalents for men. Men fall in love too! And wouldn't it be great, as a young dude, to see stories about young dudes falling in love and finding their way through relationships, from the dude's side of things? I have seen a very few YA novels that handled this very well (Cory Doctorow's Little Brother comes to mind), but there is virtually nothing in the adult market. And of course, that answer is always, "guys wouldn't read that", to which I say "of course they wouldn't, you keep telling them it is wrong and unmanly!".

Deleted comment

mbarr

5 years ago

emmalyon

5 years ago

dornbeast

5 years ago

Deleted comment

Lucky you!
I remember growing up that I was aware Anne McCaffrey was female, but it didn't mater. I had been reading Andre Norton for years before I happened to read an introduction that confirmed that she was female.

I wasn't aware of the gender of authors. Actually, I wasn't aware of authors as people. It didn't occur to me think that books came from some where beyond the library or bookstore. Books were magical things.

When I was in my early teens I liked coming of age stories. And after reading Godstalk by P. C. Hodgell I decided that coming of age stories with female protagonists were probably better than those with male protagonists. I never thought that I was reading boy stories or girl stories, 'science fiction' and 'fantasy' were the labels that mattered.
I was thinking that myself - I was reading Andre Norton for quite some time before I figured out that she was female.

I cut my teeth on her, Heinlein juvies and eventually McCaffrey.

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

taldragon

5 years ago

The fact is, to be a woman online is to eventually be threatened with rape and death. On a long enough timeline, the chances of this not occurring drop to zero.

This part made me want to cry and vomit at the same time. I want to dismiss it, because it has never happened on a forum where I was watching, not once, and because I tend to gather women around me who are smarter and more athletic than I, which creates the illusion of a post-sexist world where women as well as men are free to be who they are. But I'm convinced. If she says it's that prevalent, and if even Seanan, who impresses me as both a kind, gentle person and as someone who would be dangerous to mess with--if even she has been treated so badly, then I know it's a horrible problem.

I pledge not to put up with it. If I see it happen on a blog that I'm reading (it ain't happened yet, but it probably will soon enough. I read and post to blogs where I get my own death threats just for being an outspoken liberal), I will not stand by and let it be a problem for just the women to solve. I will get chivalrous all over their misogynist asses. If it happens on my blog, I will bring out the Serrated Gutting Knife Of Gentle Correction.

We're supposed to be the smart, evolved ones who look to the future. We're supposed to be above all that. We're supposed to have standards.
This kind of thing is why I have kept myself on the DL on the Internet. No promotion, no saying anything interesting, no easy facilitating of anyone being able to send links on to me, hiding my e-mail address so it takes awhile to find it rather than putting it on the front page with my smiling female picture. It's probably risky having a username that admits that I'm a girl, but if you keep quiet enough and nobody loves your post enough to smack it on a popular website, you can get away with it. I just wonder how long I'll be able to get away with that.

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

droewyn

5 years ago

admnaismith

5 years ago

But I also dislike the fact that I'm expected to be totally a-okay with teenage girls reading books covered in muscular men with giant guns, while sneering at teenage boys reading books with thoughtful-looking women on the covers.

Seems to me, we're supposed to be totally a-okay with both. I wonder if, say, The Hunger Games would be considered "a book for GIRLS that the BOYS will like to read". It has a female protagonist and many supporting female badasses, while the main male characters are also heroic. I loved the books and never really thought of them as gynocentric until someone told me the popular media was classifying the sage as girly-girl because the protagonist is Katniss and not a boy.

I have mixed feelings. Seems to me, that banner you disliked is simply an author emphasizing a target demographic, which ought to be just as much fair play as advertising "For people who loved Harry Potter". OTOH, there's something a little self-contradictory in calling something a Boys' book that Girls should read too. If you want girls to read it, it's not just a boy book.

And yes, read what you want to read. Anyone who's seen my monthly book posts knows I do that. Excessively so.
The thing is that throughout the history of novel writing-- a huge huge HUGE percentage of adventure books have been "for boys that girls will want to read too" because women didn't get to be the protags of most adventures. Girls who like to read adventure have always read "boys books." I wanted to be Robin Hood when I was little, and Batman a little later on-- and Gerd when I discovered Le Guin's damned benighted "only for the menz' system of magic.

So the dude advertising his novel in that way? Is a joke. Possibly on him. Unless he meant to do that-- in which case he ironied himself into perdition on the assumption that the readership would get his joke. Me, I'm too tired to laugh.

admnaismith

5 years ago

dharma_slut

5 years ago

admnaismith

5 years ago

dharma_slut

5 years ago

netpositive

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

deire

April 6 2012, 18:26:36 UTC 5 years ago Edited:  April 6 2012, 18:27:11 UTC

Yes. I grew up reading the same authors. I grew up trying desperately to be asexual, in my approach to the text or whatever else because the default setting was male, and that, that I couldn't manage to be. But I have to admit, I still don't dress like a girl, what with lightweight fabrics and all. ;P
Heh.
I had a fairly unique experience growing up--my mom was the original sci-fi fan in the family, so I got introduced to the genre through Anne McCaffrey, and went on to read Tanya Huff, Tamora Pierce, Mercedes Lackey, and even authors like L. J. Smith, Anne Rice, and K. A. Applegate who might not've been my favorites but who were unarguably THERE. I got lucky in that then and now my favorite spec-fic authors have always overwhelmingly been women. Not all of them, but the majority. I do wonder if I may have been the first gen of spec-fic fans where this was even POSSIBLE.

At any rate, that only addresses half of what you're talking about here, and I wholeheartedly agree with the other half--real progress will be when we can get ten-year-old boys as interested in Alanna the Lioness as ten-year-old girls are.
Agreed.

ejmam

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

When I was a little kid I decided I must be a boy, because all of the people in the books I read who were like me were the boys. The girls, if they were there, stayed home, cooked, and wore dresses. I didn't. I had adventures.
Yes.

netmouse

5 years ago

jennygadget

5 years ago

paksenarrion2

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

I wonder if it's a reaction to Twilight, which are the only YA books some authors have encountered? Doesn't excuse it, but it might explain it.
In my kid's grade school, they had a Book Club after-school thingie, and one of the boys brought in... one of the Twilight books. I think the one where Edward was talking about how he'd been Turned, if I recall the excerpt that the kid read. He was really enthused over this book. I dunno if he liked the rest of the series, but... hey. Apparently bits of Twilight are boy-books, too. Or, ah, Books for Girls that Boys can Enjoy Too, perhaps. If one is feeling a bit snarky. >_>

admnaismith

5 years ago

archangelbeth

5 years ago

jennygadget

5 years ago

windbourne

5 years ago

jennygadget

5 years ago

windbourne

5 years ago

jennygadget

5 years ago

windbourne

5 years ago

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

You have caused me much thought.
Yay!
Random anecdote: Last night I dreamed I had finished and published a project that's been on my mind for a while (YA horror/fantasy with a female protagonist) and I ran into you at a hotel and you said you were reading it and you thought it was awesome. I woke up really happy.

If it ever gets published, I know it will be marketed as a "for girls." And I guess that's okay, because I am writing it for one specific girl, my little sister. (She was into Twilight, and I'm terrified that she's going to go for some abusive creep just because he's pretty, so I wanted her to have something about an active heroine who's loved by a decent guy.) But there's nothing about it that's not "for boys," either.

I don't know, I think if more boys read books about girls, they might learn to treat women like people instead of things, and that should really be encouraged.
yes. I get the feeling this is what worries some people though, when it comes to boys reading books about girls.

seanan_mcguire

5 years ago

droewyn

5 years ago

captaintwinings

5 years ago

Previous
← Ctrl ← Alt
Next
Ctrl → Alt →