The majority of urban fantasy is written in the first person. I fight the monster, I open the door to the creepy crypt at the bottom of the hill, I try not to summon a snake god to Thanksgiving dinner. This creates a feeling of absolute immediacy, while also creating a feeling of safety, since most first person narrators are reasonably guaranteed to survive their stories. (I consider, say, Rose Marshall an exception, since she's already dead. Maybe this explains why she gets shot so much.) It also limits the perspective of the books. When you're reading a Toby book, the only information you'll get is what Toby has to give, and that information will always be filtered through her particularly Toby-esque way of seeing the world.
Third person gives you more leeway on the will she/won't she question where surviving is concerned, and also creates the option to provide the reader with additional information. Sure, the protagonist is bound by their own perceptions, but the author gets to play with omniscience. This is both good and bad, and the varying degrees of third person omniscience is a topic for another day. Suffice to say that sometimes this distancing serves the story very, very well.
I have just finished reading two third person urban fantasies, neither of which will be named here, because I'm looking critically at structure, not trying to compare-and-contrast their plots or the quality of their writing. In the first, the author took advantage of the third person structure and hopped from place to place, now following the villain, now following a secondary character, now returning to the primary protagonist. The omniscience was kept to a minimum, since otherwise, the plot would have turned boring for the reader; this is obviously pretty tricky, but the writer handled it well. I don't think this book could have been written in first person, and the tense never bothered me. It was a third person book because it needed to be.
The second third person urban fantasy stuck to an extremely limited perspective, following the protagonist at the exclusion of all else. At no point, did we get information that she didn't have, which made waiting for her to catch up occasionally a lot more frustrating than I expected it to be. I'm used to being forgiving when my UF/PR protagonists are a little slow, because I'm used to being so deep in their heads that I can see why they're not making the intuitive jumps that I can make. I know how they think. In the absence of that knowledge, I kept waiting for the heroine to be smarter than I was, and I kept being disappointed. It honestly left me wondering why the author didn't stick with the first person perspective that's standard in the genre. It would have been the same story; it would even have been a stronger story, because the immersion in the heroine would have made it much more urgent.
Choosing a story's point of view can be difficult, but I find that usually, I can tell which they need to be by looking at whether the story would even be possible in a tighter perspective. And I try to keep things as tight as possible, for the immediacy. Your mileage may, and probably will, vary.
So how do you feel about perspective? Does first person keep it tight and immersive, or is it off-putting and overly familiar? Does third person make things mysterious and flexible, or is it distancing and remote? Or does it even matter if the story's good?
Thoughts?
(*If the movie starts with people in the water, it's either an evil sharks movie, an evil alligator movie, or a sea monster movie. If you see a shark within the first five minutes, it's not an evil sharks movie. Etc.)
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June 21 2011, 19:33:23 UTC 6 years ago
ESPECIALLY with established fandom characters, first person seems presumptuous at some level. Which is not entirely logical (after all, just about all fanfic is presumptuous at some level...) but that's just what it feels like to me.
I have similar issues with tense. I see a lot of fanfic written in the present tense (and don't get me started on those that mix tense) that really shouldn't be. I only generally use present tense for very short things, for that sense of immediacy. Reading very long works in present tense makes me tired, but that may just be an oddity on my part.
June 21 2011, 19:35:43 UTC 6 years ago
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June 21 2011, 20:39:14 UTC 6 years ago
Kidding.
June 21 2011, 20:43:57 UTC 6 years ago
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June 21 2011, 20:45:20 UTC 6 years ago
In a story I wrote recently, though, I had to take into account that there is a point later on where my protagonist is out of commission, and I need someone else to tell that chapter or chapters. I wrote the story in third person in order to be able to make that switch later on.
I find, though, that when I write in third person, it's almost as if I am writing in first person, as if that character is still telling the story, even though it says "she" instead of "I."
Of course, that may be precisely the sort of thing that bugs you.
June 21 2011, 20:54:11 UTC 6 years ago
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June 21 2011, 20:47:21 UTC 6 years ago
I like first-person a lot both as a writer and as a reader, but if there's any kind of minor glitch in it, I get very literal-minded and start wondering, when and where and to whom is the narrator telling this story? Sometimes that works out and sometimes it means I don't read more. One could get equally if not more literal-minded about third-person narration, but just because of my reading experience, it seems like the default to me, the transparent unmarked kind of narration, so I'm less likely to stumble in that direction.
P.
June 21 2011, 20:56:12 UTC 6 years ago
I get the "there are things they would not tell." One of the things that bothers me most about modern urban fantasy first person is the amount of narrated first person sex from narrators who, quite frankly, shouldn't want me to know that much of their business!
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June 21 2011, 20:54:50 UTC 6 years ago
Exception: Deep Blue Sea, which pulls an entirely different trick in its first five minutes.
Also, I have read some stories that were told first-person and end with the narrator's death. It's so jarring that it ruins what might be a good story otherwise.
June 21 2011, 20:56:39 UTC 6 years ago
June 21 2011, 21:19:44 UTC 6 years ago
I think you write first-person very well, better than most authors I've seen. Toby doesn't intentionally keep anything from the readers, and she is certainly honest with herself.
I don't see second-person anywhere these days except for occasionally at Fanfiction.Net. Personally, I think second-person only belongs in the Choose Your Own Adventure books. I want to tell the second-person writers at FF.Net that unless they're giving me multiple paths to take, they need to take the time to make up a protagonist.
June 21 2011, 21:59:46 UTC 6 years ago
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June 22 2011, 13:43:47 UTC 6 years ago
The "whiny" thing can be tricky. During one of the earliest drafts of Rosemary and Rue, I got a scene bounced back because Toby was too whiny. She said like six words in the scene, so I was confused...until I realized the reader was objecting to the narration.
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June 21 2011, 22:31:53 UTC 6 years ago
I find The Maltese Falcon to be a slightly frustrating read for this reason. We spend all our time with Sam Spade, we only really get his thoughts, and it reads like a first person book turned into third at a later stage. It would have fared better as a first person story. All of Hammett's best were first person.
Still though, one of the greatest detective stories ever written.
June 22 2011, 13:43:59 UTC 6 years ago
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June 22 2011, 13:45:26 UTC 6 years ago
Very good points, all.
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June 22 2011, 02:30:57 UTC 6 years ago
That said, if info is TRULY limited to what the protagonist perceives and knows and imparts, that is better accomplished by a first-person than third person narrative. And it is, as you note, immediate. (This is the reason why me being, even briefly, upset that George didn't tell us certain things had me laughing at myself for being silly, but a third-person authorial narrative closely following George and Shaun over the Feed storyline and leaving out the same details would have left me irritated, not laughing at myself. An 'impartial' authorial narrator creates expectations that normally a first-person narrator doesn't.)
June 22 2011, 13:46:54 UTC 6 years ago
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June 22 2011, 03:15:33 UTC 6 years ago
If I may ask: when you're writing first-person narration, how much conscious thought do you give to the story's audience as imagined by the narrator, and about the circumstances under which the narrator is telling the story?
June 22 2011, 13:47:26 UTC 6 years ago
First Person is Hard
June 22 2011, 06:40:21 UTC 6 years ago
Re: First Person is Hard
June 22 2011, 13:48:38 UTC 6 years ago
June 22 2011, 07:50:52 UTC 6 years ago
The other was a case of "this story would benefit emotionally from this character narrating it from his perspective." And I was right.
Both stories were from the perspective of intelligent characters.
Otherwise, I always use third-person omniscient selective perspective. Sometimes I jump around, other times I follow a character. Depends on what the story needs. One thing I love most about TPOSP is I can dip into the characters' thoughts when I need to.
However, I like to experiment at times, and I have at least one other story planned which will utilize first person perspective, since the story would benefit from that perspective.
June 22 2011, 13:47:44 UTC 6 years ago
June 22 2011, 08:38:04 UTC 6 years ago
with third person, while it's not so immediate as first person, I find it easier to stay lost in the story / world as it's not "me" doing things *lol*
June 22 2011, 13:47:54 UTC 6 years ago
June 22 2011, 16:22:21 UTC 6 years ago
I find it off-putting, but not overly familiar. It just bugs my sense of chronology that a story is being told by the person it happened to, particularly if it's written in "realtime" as if it's happening as it's being told.
I prefer third person omniscient because I like to know what the other characters are thinking and feeling too.
It kind of makes me sad, really, that first person seems to be the narrative style of choice for a lot of urban fantasy.
June 22 2011, 17:44:34 UTC 6 years ago
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June 22 2011, 22:19:44 UTC 6 years ago
Actually, in addition to what works for the story, I think it depends on the character doing the narration. For example, I can't imagine Shadow from "American Gods" doing first person narration. He just doesn't seem like he'd be comfortable with it, y'know?
June 27 2011, 15:15:27 UTC 6 years ago
June 23 2011, 00:31:36 UTC 6 years ago
My other pet peeve: multi-first person POVs where EVERY CHARACTER SOUNDS THE SAME. Ugh.
As a writer, I have to consider POV a lot more carefully. I usually gravitate toward first person. I'm not sure why, but I've been that way for a long time; it probably has something to do with the immediacy, and being able to go deeply inside a character's head. That said, it's definitely limiting at times. While I was working on the first draft for my current work-in-progress, I realized that there was a TON of stuff going on that my narrator didn't know. It was frustrating because *I* knew what was going on, and I wanted to tell the reader, but I couldn't. However, it also meant that the story had a lot more suspense than it would have from a third-person POV, because the narrator is discovering these things as she goes along.
June 24 2011, 16:44:27 UTC 6 years ago
June 23 2011, 03:03:22 UTC 6 years ago
Also first basically means if I don't like the main character, I can't stomach the series. While that's probably always the way to bet, even a close third gives me at least a shot at sticking around if I like other parts of the ensemble. And a close third also for me is just as effective as first at removing the distance thing, though I know other people's MMV.
The other thing is that I find first person fail in the attempt to cram exposition or description into the framework particularly jarring. Perhaps because I am not a visual thinker I do not find the tradeoff worth while. (Not to say it can't be done well. Just that it's easy to do not so well, especially if you feel the info needs to be frontloaded, and it's a particular peeve of mine.)
That said, it's a mild preference and I totally get that some stories demand to be written in certain persons. And I do like the discipline that first or a close third provides in making the author get out of everyone else's head and show don't tell. I'm not as doctrinaire as some about never switching POV within a scene, but I do think it's an easy thing to do wrong or just too much.
The only one that's a dealbreaker for me is second person, which pisses me off to no end unless it's made immediately clear that "you" is a specific person that is not in any way intended to be me or any other real world reader. (Basically at that point it becomes a special case of the epistolary format). Fortunately second person is extremely rare.
July 12 2011, 19:33:16 UTC 6 years ago
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June 27 2011, 21:27:44 UTC 6 years ago
I am pondering whether my guess as to which the first book is happens to be correct. If so, I have some minor to middling issues with it, but the point of view is most emphatically not one of them.
I recall lots of 3rd person urban fantasy -- back when War for the Oaks and De Lint were at the center of the fuzzy set that was urban fantasy (credit to Atteberry for literary fuzzy set theory) -- but then, I'm talking UF, while you're talking UF/PR. So... I'm probably wrong about the first book.
First person can help when the protagonist is slow at picking up on things. But, here, length matters, as does writing skill, as does how fast the reader is.
So, in Late Eclipses, it's fine that what might be obvious to me isn't obvious to Toby. It isn't just that you're using first person. You're writing well enough that I know how freaked out Toby is by Oleander. You could do this third or first person, with the strength of your writing alone. First person makes more sense, sure, but if you'd been going third person limited to Toby's point of view all along, I doubt I'd mind.
But, it also matters that Late Eclipses is short enough that Toby being "slow" doesn't really last that long, either in subjective reading time or "objective" plot time. I recently read a duology where my issue wasn't that it was a third person narrative with multiple points of view and people who seemed slow on the uptake. The sheer length of the work meant that the slow-on-the-uptake trope, however well justified, got old. And, I had other issues with the work, but that's off topic here.
Subjective reading time may matter more. If I'm reading through slow moving chapters or even pages, I'll get more antsy. It's like subjective time in playing an RPG. I've had players in my email game get impatient at slow character improvement, and I've had to recalibrate. Even if something is taking only weeks or a month for the PCs, if it's taking years of player time, that is forever.
So, yes, point of view matters. But, it's only one of several things which matter.
July 8 2011, 15:58:05 UTC 6 years ago
A lot of things matter, yes. The point under discussion here was specifically the POV.
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