Please don't be That Guy.

Please send a physical description of this fellow to feedback@arisia.org. He may not have specifically harassed you, but he generally created a hostile environment, and if he harassed someone else we may already be considering his case and want corroborating information.

This goes in general. We want to know, even if the incident does not seem actionable by itself, because we may have other information.

"I wrote an alternate universe [SHOW] [SEASON], where instead of [MAN] killing [WOMAN], he rapes her."

The other inappropriate behavior is certainly relevant, and I would generally support reminding people about. But I would urge people to report, given that quote above, as palmwiz is suggesting.

It is very likely this is not isolated behavior.

I'd like to say I love Arisia even more right now.

I was at the panel, though I didn't see his face, as I was in the back. And yes... the whole room blanched at his rape fanfic. It was very uncomfortable.

Ok, my reply was going to be more general and Seanan, concurring that "that guy" is as uncomfortable producing as she said and that panelists and moderators need to diligently shut them down so they don't take over panels and praising her for the above post. Still feel that way..

Here comes the " but" though...

I wasn't there so cannot comment on what lines his behavior did or did not cross, but I know I am uncomfortable at lynchings. I really am. This guy may have been a jerk, inappropriate, really disgusting and more but that doesn't make anything he did actionable and getting him identified so that others can possibly label him as say a "offender" is huge and can have an impact way beyond what might be intended.

Look, I don't want to hang around obnoxious people anymore than anyone else does, but I also have the compassion to see that they might be damaged in ways I am not aware of. They may be mentally ill, have social anxiety disorders or disorders that make social interaction a puzzle they cant quite figure out. It's not our job to to fix that, but aside from keeping a firm hold on the discussion in panels so that no one audience member dominates and maybe, if one is comfortable, directly confronting any ken who does repeatedly try to dominate I am leery of us now acting as a mob to bring his name as a person who has harassed others simply by being unclean and obnoxious.

Now, if you are being really polite and not telling me that he was openly making lewd gestures, verbal remarks etc and this truly was a case if harassment than I apologize for butting in, because as I said I wasn't at that panel.

Full disclosure, I am nearly 50 and have spent a great deal of my life working with populations that include people like this, who while repugnant in hygiene and other social areas are not criminals, but merely have never received or are not capable of learning basic social skills.

Sorry this is so long and probably incoherent.

It was also meant to be in reply to palmwhiz. Sorry.

We want to know about incidents that the reporter doesn't think are actionable because, in the event that the same person committed (or in future commits) a more serious violation of our harassment policy, our reaction will depend on whether it was part of a pattern of violations. Having lots of information not only helps us identify problem attendees, but also gives us confidence in our beliefs when we think something really is isolated.

(edited to change userpic)

I honestly see where you a coming from but have to say it is legally really shaky and morally more so. This is why I prefer transparency in these types of situations. If you had an individual who you have indeed a concern or claim of violating the law than ask those attending for a name if you must and see if they corroborate. A description isn't useful as I can think of many observed at the cin who fit that general description.

I am old enough to remember stories of the McCarthy era and how chilling this was. I don't want us to foster an environment where we list people we dint like because they are icky and then start trying to find more evidence to exclude them or charge them with crimes. Again, if a crime was committed then yes, that info should be reported.


Also, and more importantly, what is the problem here? He was a shmuck? He was dirty and socially repugnant? He wanted to and may have gotten off ( but this is subjective and yes, if those there so actual acts on his part that is a different story) on sharing his rape fantasies as fanfic? Many women truly enjoy and get off disucssing their m/m fanfic and others ( not me!) might be disgusted by that but they have a right to discuss it. The panel and audience may have been primarily female but it was not a women only space and so not fair to expect him to only discuss fanfic that women would like. However, really, none of this is relevant, it's clear he was a jerk and I completely agree with Seanan that no kne should be that guy or gal. I attended numerous panels where kne or two jndoividuaks completely controlled the panel with personal stories, issues etc and while not all of them were cringe-worthy it was still annoying. I attended one panel where a panelist announced she couldn't stay more than half an hour and so would do all the talking until then, and I left becaus that's basically what she did. Aggravating? Yes. actionable? No.

Man, I am on bed rest today and this autocorrect and iPad keyboard are killing me. Sorry for all the typos.

I hear your concerns about lynch mobs and poorly socialized people and I'm afraid that I don't have much to reassure you with other than my personal assurance as a member of the board of directors that we take fairness seriously. I hope that, and the continued presence of some people who might otherwise have been run out of town on a rail, helps at least a little.

1) Sharing details with the Arisia feedback team - whose job it is to hear this sort of feedback for issues that may be more major (actual specific harassment) or less major (some of the feedback inevitably include complaints about things like why certain program items even exist) - is hardly a public name-outing and lynching.


2) Some of what you wrote above sounds very similar to the same arguments used to derail womens' experiences, by telling us that we are over-reacting, over-reacting, "Oh that's just Bob, it's just his way", "oh, well geeks often don't have social skills", and similar stuff. Until there's a problem, and then it becomes "Why didn't you say anything before it became a problem???". I think palmwiz is being very responsible in askinf for feedback, and the way he has asked for feedback.

I am totally fine with people disagreeing with me, but have to say I get pretty angry when accused of shutting down womens voices.

I get to have an opinion. My opinion is simple, the guy was clearly a dork and it sounds like the panelisst did a decent job handling it and that with this entry Seanan has made a valid plea for no one to be "that guy". I simply don't agree with putting him on a list, but it's not my decision just my opinion and if folks want to then knock yourselves out.

The anger I am feeling now is because you, in disagreeing with me, are making hugs assumptions about my own experiences, knowlege and beliefs. I was raped at the age of 9. I was abused and worse by a partner again in my teens and I have sent my life helping women and children escape a cycle of violence and shame. I have never belittled the voices or realities of any man or woman and repeatedly in what I wrote above said that certainly if individuals felt those lines had been forward than report it. I don't get to decide where those lines or whether they have been crossed. I merely suggested we try and be a little compassionate as well because we could be dealing with an individual with serious mental health issues or even simply with someone who is just a jerk but not more than that. Again, I wasn't there so not my place to make the distinction. It makes me sad that another women would tell me that I am a collaborator because I have an opinion she disagrees with. I just wanted to caution folks to differentiate between creepy and actionable and to maybe temper judgement with kindness. Silly me.

Oh and not that it matters, but yes I am liberal in my politics, I am not Christian, I am pro human rights and I like small furry animals, unicorns and some zombies. I am fat, my family is multi-racial and um..can't think of any other shoeboxes I might get put in..but yeah, I don't eat kittens either.

Well, I think the other thing you seem to be missing is that 'Legally actionable' and 'we would prefer you not attend our convention' are not the same thing. I don't think anyone was talking about legal action unless he /actually did something illegal/ which he didn't in that panel.

On the other hand, some of that arguably comes under 'against the rules of the convention' which could mean that he be asked not to come to future ones or at least that someone from the concom needs to have a discussion with him about some of his inappropriate behavior.

I also have to say that I found your response, complete with invocation of McCarthyism and witch hunts and persecution to be rather extreme given what was actually asked. And somewhat stiffling as you were effectively telling people who were made very uncomfortable 'well, you shouldn't complain because you don't know what else is going on with him'. Because, as much as you may not have meant to do that, that is, actually, what you effectively did.

Utterly respectfully, Ms. Chase:

I do not see beable accusing you of shutting down womens' voices.

I do see beable using a simile to express her comparable point of view on the general topic of "being uncomfortable with a directive to NOT report inappropriate behavior".

I think that she is trying to explain her discomfort with your actual opinion on the A Topic by drawing parallels to a more clearly delineated but totally other scenario from history.

I think you are reacting to her disagreement by misreading what she actually wrote. Your hindbrain is throwing in an idea that beable has accused you of a particularly objectionable BadGuyness. You are then accusing her of thinking things about you -- your words: "you, in disagreeing with me, are making hugs assumptions about my own experiences, knowlege and beliefs" -- that her own words do not even indirectly indicate.

Yes, I unfortunately am now saying that you overreacted. I hate to see a sensible, insightful woman essentially say "my origin makes it unreasonable for anyone to say I am wrong".

***

For my own part, when I'm at a convention, I automatically presume that I'm there to learn and to help others learn; and anyone who starts a social interaction with me is there for the same reason, and therefore can reasonably be approached with, "Are you interested in some practice at recognizing and navigating social boundaries? I've learned how to tell when Topic Q will freak out a particular subgroup, and some of why, and how to not induce freaking, and would be happy to compare notes with you for a while."

But I've met some people of whatever gender who prefer that the world bend to accomodate them rather than the other way 'round, and those are people I would discreetly report to totient.

This. If someone makes people feel uncomfortable at con, it is something we want to know about. It may be that the appropriate action is to just hear the concern, but regardless, we want to address situations where Arisians feel uncomfortable.

From the code of conduct (as published on the website and in the Souvenir Book):

Arisia expects its members to respect each other and
behave in a generally civilized fashion. Members should
respect common sense rules for public behavior, personal
interaction, common courtesy, and respect for private property.
If you wouldn’t do it in a public setting, please don’t
do it here.

Please report to the convention committee any incidents
in which a member of the convention is abusive, insulting,
intimidating, bothersome, or acting in an unsafe or illegal
manner.

There's a line that That Guy did not cross, in the situation as described, when it comes to unsafe or illegal. Still, someone who creates a hostile environment with his words or deeds is someone we would like to be able to chat with directly, when possible.

And, Seanan ... I'm so sorry. This sounds really uncomfortable. :(