Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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Please don't be That Guy.

I thought fairly hard about whether or not to make this post, as I generally try not to say negative things that can't be veiled behind a lovely shimmering curtain of "no details here." In the end, I decided that the details I had were vague enough to be borderline-generic, with a few careful omissions. And this is an important "please don't be this guy."

On Sunday at Arisia, I was on a panel called "Fanfic As Writer's Workshop," for discussion of how the skills and techniques learned from writing fanfiction can be applied to writing original fiction. (Yes, Virginia, you can learn how to write by writing fanfic. But that is another post for another day.) I was, at the time, incredibly sick, due to exposure to mango (which I am highly allergic to), but I was determined to soldier through. It's probably a good thing that I was as sick as I was, since it prevented my becoming annoyed enough to shout. See? Vomiting has value!

The panel consisted entirely of women (myself, three other writers, and Diana). The room, while small, was quite well-filled, with a nice mix of people who wanted to discuss learning about writing through, well, actually writing. And, in the front row, was That Guy. He was fairly large; fairly unkempt; had not brushed his hair; appeared to be wearing basic black for its stain-concealing properties, rather than out of any goth sympathies; and was, when first sighted, vigorously picking at his teeth.

Please don't be That Guy, part one: If you're sitting in the front row of a panel, in full view of the panelists, please don't pick your teeth. If you must pick your teeth, please use a toothpick, or something, rather than using your fingers. We'd really rather not watch.

The panel began with enthusiasm, as each panelist explained their views on our topic, and we began taking questions from the attendees. That Guy stopped picking his teeth, which was a mercy, and began, instead, picking his ear. With the same finger.

Please don't be That Guy, part two: Sometimes we have itches. I get that. I, too, am an itchy person. But if you're sitting in the front row of a panel, and have already been seen to be picking your teeth, please do not stick the same finger in your ear. It makes the panelists very uncomfortable.

More questions from the audience. This is the point at which That Guy began truly interacting. "How do I get more readers for my fanfic?" he asked. "I wrote an alternate universe [SHOW] [SEASON], where instead of [MAN] killing [WOMAN], he rapes her."

Cue horrified silence. The fanfic community is largely female, for better or for worse, and that sort of statement is rarely going to go over well in mixed company. Diana, who was by that point far more diplomatic than I, tried pointing this out, along with the note that maybe, if he wanted people to trust him writing about rape, he needed to get them to trust him writing about other things, first. He countered with the fact that he had received good feedback from women. We moved on as quickly as possible.

Later in the panel, the topic of porn came up. Porn is, after all, the stereotypical reason people write fanfic, and that's not entirely a bad thing. So all of these women are now saying the word "porn," with varying degrees of enthusiasm.

Please don't be That Guy, part three: If you think there is ANY CHANCE that you might become visibly aroused by live women saying the word "porn," please DO NOT sit in the front row at a panel on fanfiction. They're going to say it, and what's going to happen is going to happen, and then I'm going to have to fight the urge to eject you from the room.

That Guy attempted to drag the panel back to a recounting of the plot of his fanfic several times, to the point where I actually asked him "How is this relevant?" (If you've ever been on a panel with me, or attended a panel with me, you'll know that I'm not opposed to topic drift, so long as it remains interesting and vaguely tangential. If I'm the one shutting you down, it's because you're so far off topic that you're no longer even in the topic's time zone.)

So please. This is a plea for everyone, male and female, who attends conventions and goes to panels: Please don't be That Guy. Don't sit to take up three chairs, sticking fingers in your facial orifices, and try to engage women in discussions on how rape in literature is awesome and not inappropriate in the least. Don't look offended when the panelists don't want to hand the panel to you, so that you can tell us about your magnum opus and why we all need to read it. And please, please, don't be creepy. For the rest of the weekend, if I saw That Guy, I moved to another elevator.

Let's play nicely with the other fans, and only creep them out with their permission, okay? I've done my best to be general here, but this one specific incident really drove home why this is something that needs to be said. No one was touched, cornered, or specifically harassed, but I had three people who attended that panel tell me how uncomfortable That Guy made them. Beyond that, I know how uncomfortable he made me.

I'm just saying.

ETA: Because this has come up twice, and is hence distracting: "please don't take up three chairs" does NOT mean "please don't be fat at a panel." You may be as fat as you do or do not wish to be, and as long as you're happy and healthy, I'm happy for you. But as I say on a regular basis, your backpack does not deserve a chair of its own. Neither does your leg, unless you are injured and require elevation. Neither does your arm. And if you're taking a chair each for your leg, torso, and arm, you have perhaps crossed a line.
Tags: contemplation, cranky blonde is cranky, don't be dumb, in the wild, post-con
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While I appreciate 99.9% of this post and agree with it, the 'taking up three chairs' thing made me blink a little. If he was using his backpack to block off extra spaces and generally be a jerk in a crowded room, that's one thing.

But the vibe I'm getting from this is that 'don't take up three chairs' means 'don't be gross and fat', and that's really negative and ugly, and especially in the fandom/fanfic community fairly ridiculous.

I know that you're generally not a fatphobe, so I may be reading this all wrong, but it felt like fat hate and I wanted to express my disappointment.
Aaand I see in the time it took me to write this comment, it's already been addressed above. An ETA in the post would be appreciated, if you have the time.

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

knitmeapony

6 years ago

dornbeast

6 years ago

knitmeapony

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

knitmeapony

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

admnaismith

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

Ugh.

Most of the time, I'm really proud to be a member of the Geek Tribe, attending cons and reveling in all things Nerd and Geek. But then I run into THAT GUY. Whether it's your creeptastic front row guy, or Chainmail Shirt Guy, Face Paint, or whatever variety of jerk, it makes it hard to explain why I'm proud to be a geek to anyone who doesn't get it.
I tend to try and compare it to the sports fan. As in, most of us are like the season ticket holders, spend time and money with the thing we love and meet like minded people. But there's always the nutjobs like the streakers (or at least we used to get them on English football pitches. Strip off and run across the field. And they were never pretty), that no-one wants to be like.

It's just being a sports fan is considered more socially acceptable. Never mind, we know that geeks rule right?

living400lbs

6 years ago

loki_dip

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

dianthus

6 years ago

micheinnz

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

I apologize. There are guys like this out there and they tend to bug the hell out of any of us males that have any pride in our behavior and appearance.

*bows in apology*

I'm just flabbergasted when I see guys do this. And as somebody else pointed out they often don't think of themselves as "that guy".

For the record I'm all for issuing protective goggles for panels and allowing the panelists paintball guns with water soluble paintballs.
If you are a geek and in pagan friendly circles, you can get a double, even triple Dose of That Guy (1). Sometimes sie also winds up in social circles because no one wants to throw out another out cast and hoo boy, that's tough. (2)

I was at a altreligion cocktail party once and actually had to scream at a guy to "GET YOUR HAND OFF MY KNEE!" Fortunately the hosts saw and well, he never came back.

This is all a long post that joins you in saying "Don't be That Guy".

The More You Know! (star! swoosh!)






(1) I see this as a non-gender specific term; I have met a few female That Guys.
(2) I think this is in the Geek Social Fallacies as well.
Been there, done that, usually ended up being the bouncer, lol

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

{hugs}. So sad you had to suffer through that :-(
At least it ended!

The sheer variety in human DNA never fails to astonish me.

(Tune: "This Boy", by the Beatles)

That Guy...
Just walked in the door
And though he's 34...
That guy acts just like a kid

That guy...
I'd tell him loud and clear:
"Go stick it in your ear"
But that guy, he already did.

Oh, and THIS guy
Makes me happy
At the panel, so I'll stay and linger
But THAT guy
He can't touch me
'Cause I saw where he put his finger!

That guy
He writes tales of rape
And now we're all agape
So that guy won't be back again...

Hee.
Sadly, conventions are full of people like that, and I'm sorry to hear your panel featured one.

I was on a panel at Dragon*Con in 2009 and took a photo of the filled to capacity (and beyond) room we were in before we started. It wasn't until a month or so later, when I was deciding on which photos to post, that I noticed a nosepicker in the front row. UGH!
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

If you're gonna do it, don't sit in front!
Oh god so very, very wrong. UGH.

What is it with creepy guys and their total lack of self awareness? I mean, yes, the one thing pretty much necessitates the other, but it doesn't *have* to, by which I mean, it's perfectly possible to lack self awareness and be something that's not creepy. I just... what goes through the minds of these people? I'd try to fathom it, but then I might need therapy.

DO NOT WANT.
From the time I spent hanging out in college with a couple of emotional-vampire That Guy types because I felt sorry for them and naively thought I could help them — or at least compensate for all those mean pretty women out there who hated nice guys and only wanted to date assholes — what goes through their heads mostly seems to be either "God, other people are stupid, WHY DON'T THEY GET IT? Why aren't they working harder to appreciate me?" or "My life is super hard and no one cares and it's everybody else's fault."

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

Because apparently one person always needs to perpetuate the stereotype? *sighs*

I was seriously creeped out by a guy at an event I worked in Copenhagen who told me all about the number of times he'd been offered sexual services for money that morning, but if I offered he would find the funds. Then he asked if he could shoot me.

The latter is because the Danish word for photo translates more as 'to shoot' which came up a lot. As for the rest, I think he was saying that I was pretty. I am not entirely sure.

Hopefully no-one at the panel my friends and I attended made you feel seriously uncomfortable? (The zombie panel at San Diego 2010). Your discussion of virology made my science brain so happy that I borrowed Feed from a friend and read the whole thing on the plane home. (So that you don't think I'm a complete cheapskate - Deadline has been pre-ordered with Amazon.co.uk!)

Sorry for an insanely long and rambly comment.
No problem. And the San Diego zombie panel was awesome. No one there was creepy at all!
the fact that he had received good feedback from women.

Possibly from more guys like That Guy pretending to be women?
Or women desperate to be FAR AWAY from him but can't figure out another way to give him that feedback.

tibicina

6 years ago

eoforyth

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

On the one hand: Ugh. Yeah. That's quite an all-in-one package of not-what-you-wantness. Don't wanna be That Guy.

OTOH... There is this curious and as yet scientifically undiscovered force of attraction between the smallest finger of my right hand, and my right ear... And it's *powerful*! And sometimes, if I'm paying rapt attention to something else, or if I'm just daydreaming, then the hand goes up to the ear and I don't realise what I'm doing until it's too late. At which point I remember I'm in public, and if I'm still in mid - er, whatever - then I have to find a discreet way to get out of posture I find myself in. Just whipping you hand down *from* your ear attracts more attention.

So if that ever happens while I'm in the audience for a con panel, I'm sorry. I shall continue my efforts to control it, but I can't promise success.

You, at least, are not large and obnoxious :)

lysystratae

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

BRAVA!!!!!!

My condolences on running into "That Guy." His brother was at the last presentation I made...and I hear they have about 236,784 cousins around the world.

...and they ALL vote.

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

Please don't be That Guy, part three: If you think there is ANY CHANCE that you might become visibly aroused by live women saying the word "porn," please DO NOT sit in the front row at a panel on fanfiction.

D:

Oh god...
Ya know, the lack of self/social awareness is one thing vis a vis space and self-grooming behaviors. Popping a boner that's visible to anyone unfortunate enough to glance in its direction is simply unacceptable in most normative and borderline-normative public/group situations. That con and that panel at that con were firmly within the circle on the Venn diagram labeled "keep the snake in the cage" - based on Seanan's description, 'creepy' doesn't begin to describe that guy's behavior. Most men I know were mortified about inappropriate wood way back in algebra class when they couldn't take their book to the chalkboard with them. Whatever this guy's issues, they don't excuse his display. While I am sorry if someone is offended by my tone or languaging, I'm simply not broadminded enough to cave to someone else's discomfort with the need for, and existence of, safe and appropriate social boundaries to apologize for my opinion.

mskauri

6 years ago

lysystratae

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

cuddlycthulhu

6 years ago

Ok.

I was going to send a private message but have nothing to hide here.

I did not intend to stifle anyone. If my choice of language offended I am sorry. I am just as capable of choosing my words poorly as anyone else.

I own my basic premise which is simply that there is a difference between loathing a particular "type" and being forced to be made uncomfortable beyond what is appropriate by same.

I did not intend to hijack this discussion, silence anyone or imply that if something was "wrong" with the gentleman in questionthat he be given a pass.

I understand the difference between legal action and a private convention choosing to limit it's membership.

I am sorry for disrupting Seanans journal and merely tend to err on the side of compassion when dealing with jerks, doesn't mean I allow them to be jerks or disrupt meetings or whatever, just that I try to see them in a holistic light.

I simply wanted and on rereading my words, I came off sounding harsher than intended, to express my personal opinion about making lists of unpleasant people. I did say more than once that hemmay well have crossed over many lines and that was for those who observed him to decide, not me.

Be well and have a safe week end.



Thank you for the clarification. I didn't feel disrupted, I promise. :)

Amysue Chase

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

Wow. 91 comments.. I didn't scan every subreply but it doesn't look like anyone has posted the 5-2-1 rule, which is enforced at every con I have ever run (or at least in any space I have volunteered to run..)

For those not familiar, the 5-2-1 rule is, in every 24 hour period each attendee must get 5 hours of sleep, 2 meals and 1 SHOWER.

Then again, I am the same guy who has not been afraid to hand out bars of soap as a hint.

There are many levels of 'That Guy'

Agreed. And frankly, I expect to find hygiene-impaired That Guys and Thinks He's Invisible That Guys and No Social Skills That Guys at every convention, and there doesn't seem to be anything to be done about them.

I'd really settle for just educating people out of specifically being That Guy who thinks your panel is all about him, and that there's no reason any REASONABLE person should object to him getting up during the Q&A and delivering a five-minute monologue about himself, with no question in sight.

jenk

6 years ago

ldyerzsie

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

I hadn't noticed he'd become visibly stirred by the porn discussion. Augh. D:

I thought you shut him down really well, though, and I actually remarked to Josh how impressed I was with how swiftly he was dealt with. You asked what his rambling had to do with anything just as I was wondering the same thing, and then everyone else chimed in to shut him up, and the next person was called on. It was like the panel had planned out their strategy for shutting That Guy up ahead of time.

I'm glad you posted this, though. Often in fandom, I see such an effort put into acceptance of all types that That Guy ends up getting encouraged and patted on the back for being That Guy, and never gets held accountable or is made aware of how uncomfortable he's made the rest of the room. And so the rest of us end up having to tolerate or ignore That Guy, and conventions become a little less fun for it.
Good. I'm very glad that you were pleased with the way he was handled, and not horrified that we wouldn't be all-accepting to the extent of creeping out half the room. :)

alicetheowl

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

As a moderator at cons I have met That Guy in various incarnations a number of times. There are a variety of techniques for dealing with That Guy, but all of them revolve around one essential factoid:

The convention is for the enjoyment of all attendees. This includes the panelists, the audience, and even That Guy.

It does not mean "That Guy to the exclusion of everyone else."
Exactly.
I had someone in my blog mention That Guy -- in more or less the same terms,-- and state that she found him rather horrific as well.

By the time the third point you raise had come around, I was in full-on disregard mode for him, so I didn't notice his arousal. And happy I am to have missed that show, thank you.

Yes.

You are VERY LUCKY to have missed it.
And when it gets to four people That Guy needs to leave the con with security
It was icky.
Ew, gross. I'm totally squicked on behalf of you and the other panel-goers. *shudders*

I'm really glad you clarified the whole "three chairs" thing, though. Now I don't have to worry that maybe you're not as awesome as I thought you were. (You totally still are!)
Yeah, it was badly worded, and I apologize for that.

kitrinlu

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

kitrinlu

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

O.o

AAAAAAAAUUUUUUGHHHHH

Also *shuddershuddershudderskincrawlskincrawlskincrawl*
Yes.

This.
I admit, I do prop my legs if there is room, because this dramatically increases the chance that they will still work when I stand up. I know you've seen me do it, so I did not want you to think I was doing it to be an asshole. I don't do it if it looks to be inconveniencing people in a crowded panel. I will often opt to sit on the floor if I think I can't manage without the extra space. I am aware of how my disability inconveniences others and I do balance that with the whole "how well is my body working right now" thing.

Again, I do agree with your post, it's just I know my disability is mostly invisible and people make ugly judgments as a result sometimes.
As someone with an invisible disability of my own, believe me, I understand and relate. Note that I said in my addendum that taking up extra space for medical reasons was understandable and reasonable. You are not inconveniencing people to expect that you'll be able to walk when you finish a panel.

The issue was the tooth-picking PLUS the ear-digging PLUS the rape fiction PLUS the attempts to dominate the panel PLUS the visible sexual arousal, all while occupying three seats in what appeared to be a "I can have this space if I want it" manner, rather than a "this is medically mandated" manner.

I have never thought of you as an asshole.

gwyd

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

I'm really glad that it wasn't just me being overly twitchy about That Guy! Sometimes I feel like going to a women's college has completely thrown off my standards for acceptable male behavior, and I was so creeped out and simultaneously afraid I was being too judgmental.

(Hi! I was the girl who made a comment about pacing right afterward...and who froze up all awkwardly when you tried to make polite chitchat with me after the panel ended. Which I'm sorry about, by the way. I was in a socially paranoid mood from being misread as way way younger all convention long, but that's no excuse for rudeness.)
If you were being overly judgmental, so was everyone else in the room, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you were completely fine. :)

It's okay! I understand convention brainfreeze. By the last day of a con, I'm generally capable of either crippling rudeness or blank, wide-eyed smiling. I'd say "take your pick," but it's almost random which one you get at any given time.

It was nice meeting you!
I've met that guy too. *shudders*
We all have, I think. :(
I could truly see this experience as a SNL skit. Who do you think they could get to be "that" guy?
Anyone willing to be totally oblivious as they skeeze out the room.
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