Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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A few quick points...

So the discussion on my latest book piracy post is fascinating, and I fully intend to answer comments. However, right now, I'm not feeling terribly awesome, so I'm going to take some cold medication and go lay down. I just wanted to address a few high-level points first. Forgive the brevity, I really feel like crap.

Point the First: "Not everyone who illegally downloads your book would have bought it, so you shouldn't act like they would have."

True! That being said, I know enough people who have illegally downloaded books and then bought them, or have told me to my face (or via email) that they were planning to buy the book, only then got it for free, that I feel some consideration of the number of illegal copies is warranted. Just going off what I do know, I tend to assume about one person in ten represents a "lost sale." This accounts for new readers only, not people downloading copies of books they already own.

Point the Second: Downloading copies of books you already own is a morally gray area.

True. I completely understand and sympathize with people who download virtual copies of books they already own. Unfortunately, a) I don't own the e-book rights to my books right now, and thus can't say "sure, have a PDF with proof of purchase," and b) the methods for getting those downloads are non-legal. There's not a private literary speakeasy where you have to send in a photo of yourself with your legal physical copy before you get the download link. And so while I can understand the moral ambiguity of it all, I can't endorse the practice.

Point the Third: It's not piracy, it's copyright infringement.

Okay, true. For precision of language, I should call it copyright infringement. But the people who sometimes post intentionally inflammatory things on message boards aren't actually trolls, they're just being mean. In some cases, the prevailing language of the land is going to win out over precision. I apologize for any confusion.

Point the Fourth: "Does this mean you don't like me because I initially read your book in a sub-legal format?"

Did you buy the book? I mean, really, that's where my concern is here: In whether I can feed the cats. I first discovered the X-Men because my friend Lucy had an older brother who wasn't careful with his comics, and I didn't pay for those, either. As I said above, I can't condone illegal downloading, but once you've paid for the material, I lose all personal animosity.

Point the Fifth: Books and music aren't the same.

Most the research on illegal downloads has been in the music arena, and the numbers aren't the same. According to iTunes, the single song I have listened to the most often is the cover of "Livin' La Vida Loca" by Spork, which I have listened to 342 times. The single book I have read the most often is IT, by Stephen King, which I have read, if guessing generously, eighty times in the last twenty years. Many people don't re-read, or do so only sparingly. So saying that illegal downloads increase sales when you're only looking at music is like saying that breeding mice increases the elephant population.

Point the Sixth: Cory Doctorow does it.

Cory Doctorow is also recognized by my spellchecker, which doesn't recognize my name. He chose to distribute over the Internet, and it worked out awesomely for him. He's also doing Internet-savvy fiction, with a keen edge of interest for the online crowd. I write urban fantasies about women with silly names. We don't have the same target audience; it's mice and elephants again.

I'll come back and participate in the discussion more one on one later. Now? DayQuil and sleep.
Tags: common questions, cranky blonde is cranky, medical fu, technology
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*hug*
Thanks.
'I write urban fantasies about women with silly names'. Firstly, you're selling your own work short, and secondly that made me laugh.

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

Individual response to this one: I obtained a copy of ALH in ebook format for free, but I've also paid for a dead-tree copy that I've been waiting weeks for now (it still hasn't arrived at the bookstore from the suppliers, and they're chasing it). I plan on deleting the ebook when I'm done, I just couldn't wait to start reading it after I finished Rosemary & Rue (which I also bought in dead-tree, sight unseen, which is rare for me!) and the bookstore overran their estimate of when I'd get my paper copy.

So... I already own ALH, but I don't have the copy I paid for, yet. :( *eyes bookstore's supplier and gets out sharp stick to go poke them. Again.*
Want to borrow my machete?

trialia

6 years ago

I am officially designating whatever it is you're suffering from that requires one of the Quils as "McGuire-Grant" and hope the rest of us don't have viral loads that go live.

Feel better!
Seconding both the designation and the "Feel better!" (There's some serious crud going around; I've not even *been* to a con in a couple/few years, and I've been fighting off crud. And losing the battle, the chronic bronchitis, which had been under control, woke up and is giving me hell.)

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

I, literally, grew up in bookshops, which meant I developed a bad case of read first, buy if you want to keep it for re-reading.

On the other hand, I re-read a lot of my books, and including re-reads I'll happily read about 200 books a year.

It just happens that with your books, I bought both Rosemary and Rue and A Local Habitation together just after ALH came out, because they had been recommend by people I trust. Then I bought Feed and pre-ordered An Artificial Night based on how much I liked the first two.

But, when th opportunity to grab an ARC presented itself, I thrust my hand to the sky because that way I got to read it a week earlier (once you factor in shipping) than I would have done otherwise, and that's totally worth it to me.

I would probably do the same with a free online copy, if it meant getting to read the story sooner, but that wouldn't stop me buying it as soon as I could afford to do so.
And see, reading physical books first doesn't bother me so much. I don't think you can steal having read something. You know? It's the people who download and keep and don't buy, and then act like it's a favor they've done me, since they told someone what they were reading, thus giving me free exposure (which feeds not the cats).

I <3 re-reading.

ironed_orchid

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

frice2003

6 years ago

yellowblackhaze

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

ironed_orchid

6 years ago

glinda_w

November 4 2010, 23:52:09 UTC 6 years ago Edited:  November 4 2010, 23:55:11 UTC

Interesting points. (I'd missed your first post; have been sorta ABEND for a week.)

I don't have an ebook reader, yet, but I think my sticking point would be "books I already own in dead tree format" - I'm on fixed income (disability) and am limited to one new book a month (sometimes two paperbacks; if I get a hardcover and it's not discounted, it's a book in two months). Luckily, my local library system is *fantastic* - huge selection of SF&F - borrowed both R&R and Feed from them. Unluckily, library books mean I don't have it to re-read at 3 in the morning.

And... who knew, re-reading wasn't common? I had to put about 2/3 of my library back into storage; the remaining 1200 books, except for the nonfiction and the Patrick O'Brian, have all been re-read in the last four years.

So I suspect I'll buy legal e-copies of books that I already have, only if they're at a $5 price break, because otherwise I wouldn't be buying other new books.

Stuff to think about, though. And needing to feed the cats is an excellent reason for people to go buy the e-copies. (My kitty - see userpic - is getting very frail, and can only keep baby food down, so she's at about $3/day for food. Plus vet expenses. *crying* (not at cost, at her fragility and emaciated look. She used to be plumpalicious, dammit. 'S what happens when you adopt older rescue kitties. And yes, I'll do it again, and did it before. But it's so hard when it's near the end.))

edited to clarify "local library system" and "my own library" (which latter is also, to some people, huge *grin*)
Poor old kitty. :( She's very pretty, though.

glinda_w

6 years ago

Oh jeebus it's a good thing I'm just noticing this now, given my history of starting flame wars over authorial rights, copyright, and making sure artists get paid.

I'll leave it at this:

I know many artists in many media forms.

I want to make sure they get paid so they will continue to produce work that I can therefore later enjoy.

Therefore, I buy books I love. If not initially (I check books out from the library these days if I don't think I will reread them--because I re-read books I like, often several times, and in some cases, I buy books several times because I've read them to bits) then after I have read my library copy and decided said book deserves a place in my personal collection. I buy songs I like. I buy art I enjoy. I buy, not because I have tons of money (because I am poor as dirt right now due to the crappy economy), but because it is worth my limited discretionary income to make sure artists of all forms that I love can keep entertaining me.

And that's all I have to say 'bout that.
Okay I can't quite leave it at that.

Look, despite our wildest fantasies, I know *just* enough genre authors, niche musicians, and artists with devoted but small fans to know that most artistic types don't make a lot of money at what they do, EVEN IF it's fairly popular and EVEN IF they can sell it.

Nearly all genre authors I have met, know of, or have heard about have to hold down a day job.

Nearly all the ones I know about that don't can do it because they did something else first that provided a little nest egg.

Some people think theft (and I consider downloading an illegal copy of a book a form of theft--get into the technicalities of this with me if you dare, I have a law degree and I know how to parse legalese better than nearly all laypeople, but I also know how to call hiding behind the technicalities of language what it is, which is bullshit) doesn't matter if you're stealing from someone--especially a big faceless company--who's already making a fuckton of money, so what do they notice or care?

I've met people who feel JUSTIFIED in doing so because companies are big and evil (and frankly they often are IMO) and so they're sticking it to The Man.

Most genre authors? they aren't wealthy. So you're not just stealing from big anonymous book sellers and publishers. You're stealing from people who really need it to keep doing what you presumably want them to do, which is produce written material for books.

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

thnidu

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

aliciaaudrey

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

Arguing semantics is a great way to derail the topic, which is, simply, stealing is bad. Except when *I* do it for some noble reason I can justify in my own head, of course. *eye roll*
Heh.

True.

Deleted comment

Alice is VERY GOOD at telling me how hungry she is. VERY GOOD.
Feel better!! *hugs*
Thanks, honey.
I tend to buy brand new dead tree editions of something after I have already had a substantial read through them. Not before. I can do that in a bookstore or I can do that via download. If I like it, I'll buy it, but I won't know whether or not I like it until I look it over. If it's available in download form, I'm more likely to get around to looking at it and deciding whether I want to buy.

One thing I would *not* do is illegally download your books and then fail to buy the dead tree editions if I liked what I saw and had the intent of actually reading them. But I might download them on the same principle as picking the physical books up and looking inside before I laid down money at a bookstore. I want to see what I'm getting. If I didn't like them, I wouldn't buy them. If I did, I would. What I've actually downloaded is a convenient method of making my shopping decision. I will hasten to add that I would also not further distribute copies if I did download them.

My think is if you released the first chapter or two as a free sample on the Internet, that would serve the purpose of people who want to look before they buy, and it might even discourage people from torrenting the full copies. For my purposes one chapter would work just as well to do the looking-before-buying thing.

How the heck did security get compromised on the electronic editions anyhow? Or did someone scan them in?

I happen to like books I can hold in my hand, but here's a thought. What if the people who were okay with reading a novel on their computer screen were asked to give you money directly if they had downloaded the book and liked it enough to keep?
I do actually release the first chapter or two, as soon as I can (and as soon as I can get it formatted, because that takes some work).

The issue with soliciting money from people who illegally downloaded circles back to my silly addiction to having a professional copyeditor. The publisher pays me; I don't pay the publisher. So if you pay me directly, the publisher goes out of business. Most of the people—by no means all, but most—producing professional-quality novel-length work are working at that level because they've worked with professionals. So the publishers remain a necessity.

I love my publishers. I want their lights to stay on.

danceswthcobras

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

groblek

6 years ago

You say you don't own the ebook rights. Does that mean if I had ordered Feed for my Nook (instead of the paperback I did order), you wouldn't get royalties?
No; I get royalties for all editions of my work. But legally, because of the contracts I have with my publishers, I can't say "Sure, print your own edition!" The text is mine, copyright to me. I just have legally binding agreements with the companies that have paid money to make that text available en masse.
Just an interesting point that I'm going to toss into the discussion here: the Baen Free Library has done some informal research* over the years that they've been providing free e-copies of their books online, and they've almost universally found that it increases, rather than decreases, their sales of physical books.

Not, of course, that this makes illegal downloading any more legal or any more right. But it's not just Cory Doctorow.

*(link; the essays are over in the Prime Palaver section on the left. [Sorry, I don't have time to find exactly which ones discuss it.] They are a bit dated, so I don't know how the numbers hold up now, but I do know that if it didn't work they wouldn't still have the books up, almost ten years later.)
Yes, this is true. At the same time, the Baen Free Library is working with a very special, select group. I'm pretty sure most of the people who buy the eventual print edition of Sparrow Hill Road will have read it free online in its original form. They'll be buying because they see me as a person. Patrons of the Baen Free Library, in my experience, acknowledge the authors of those books as people.

Illegally downloading, as many others have brought up, creates the opportunity to view the creator as "The Man," someone who won't mind a little theft. It's the difference between a free cookie to show you my bakery is awesome, and you stealing one while my back is turned. I really think the free vs. stolen psychology needs to be considered.

beccastareyes

6 years ago

lysystratae

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

beccastareyes

6 years ago

My only exceptions to the no torrent rule are:

A book that I have prior purchased in dead tree format and is NOT available in E-book format for sale but which I wish to read on my Kindle so as not to lug said dead-tree on a plane. An example of this would be the latest Ring of Fire hardback tome. I purchased a hardcover copy, placed it into a box and found a digital copy. I did this because the publisher has chosen at least for now not to make the book available in the Kindle store.

A piece of music which I had prior purchased in which the media has been damaged or rendered unusable. Example in this case, my CD copy of Disney Event Party music which I wanted for Halloween somehow got cracked. I was ok downloading a new copy in digital mode because I had purchased a copy fairly, in this case it is basically no different than if I had backed up the CD to PC (which I should have done)

Anything else, if I want it, I buy it.
Good on you for buying things.

palmer_kun

6 years ago

jslinder

6 years ago

palmer_kun

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

palmer_kun

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

trialia

6 years ago


Um, you are underselling yourself. You can compete with Corey quite easily. I've read all of your books. The only book of his that I've managed to get more than half way through is 'Content', which is non-fiction. In my opinion, you are a better writer, even though both of you have won a Campbell Award.

On the other hand he's better at self promotion. In fact he's a wizard at it. I sent him a tweet (don't know if he will see it, he has 82,894 followers on Twitter) asking him to tell you about the coffee bean bags. To quote his website:

His next book will be WITH A LITTLE HELP, an audacious experiment in print-on-demand publishing (July 2010).


This is what the coffee bean bags were for. I gather from the excited nature of his tweets at the time, it was a success.

Just think of what you could do - CD plus Book combination. Maybe a songbook included. A few cat hairs added for reality. I suspect you could add a lot of fans. You only need 81,000 to catch up to Corey. Or you could try and catch up with @Neilhimself, he's got 1.5 million followers!

I don't consider it underselling so much as knowing my audience. Someone doing a lot of work about the post-Singularity Internet is going to have a huge built-in geek appeal, whereas I write for a set of specific genres that are still more predominantly offline.

He's definitely a self-promotion god, though. I have to give him that. And he's a sweet man, too.

Re: Corey

urban_terrorist

6 years ago

Re: Corey

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

There's piracy afoot, too - just today some guy told me that buying an ebook of mine gave him "master resell rights."
A lot of people selling ebooks about how to make money selling ebooks do have licenses like that; I get the impression that the way to make money selling ebooks is to convince other people to sell them for you.

I'm not sure why someone would have the impression that all ebooks work that way, but I'm not sure how the editor of Cooks Source decided the internet is public domain, either. People are strange like that.

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

Cooks Source

urban_terrorist

6 years ago

Deleted comment

Yay three copies!

I adore you right now.

Deleted comment

I will always read/buy physical copies of books because I cannot read off a screen. I like the feel of a dead tree book in my hands and reading the words. But I will download audio versions FROM THE LIBRARY if I need to read but my hands are busy. I am trying to get the money together so I can get a decent MP3 player(no I-phone or I-pod for me) so I can get the MP3 versions of your books as I enjoy listening to Mary Robinette Kowal reading your words.(And I will tell her so at Orycon). I still need to get the dead tree version of FEED, though so I can get it signed. I <3 the audio book version.

I am very good at re-reading books until they fall apart.

By the way, feel better soon.

Gotta love the feel of a new hardcover. There's nothing like it.

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

cleothyla

6 years ago

I think I'm getting a theme from the comments, particularly those from the last few very nice people, which I say because I agree with them - that a lot of YOUR readers in particular, and probably a lot of fantasy readers in general, are the type of bibliophiles who will live on eBooks the way vampires will live on rats - they might keep us alive, but they taste like watered down piss. I want a real book in my hand, with pages that smell like real ink, and if I give it to a friend who doesn't give it back I'll buy a new one (and send my attack cats to deal with the pilferer). If the book is so awful, I can release it into the wild, and if it's too awful for that, I want pages that burn under the light of the full moon.

Have you ever tried to burn an eBook? The smell is horrible.

Anyway, I've probably proved that I shouldn't post comments after midnight, and by the way is there a way people can get Hardbacks of your books? (Paperbacks are roughly equal to the blood of the evildoer - sure, it's human blood, but you know they deserved it anyway. Hardbacks are delicious.)
I'm no expert on the matter, but I think the way to get hardcover copies of a book when the initial release was paperback involves time travel, bribery, threats, and high explosives.

(Purchasing an author's later books in hardback appears to be a much simpler challenge involving massive sales over the course of several books, until the publisher is convinced that the market is there.)

groblek

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago


A while back I wrote a couple of articles, or rather I should say Janis Ian wrote a couple of articles, and I republished them with some commentary. What's really cute about this, is Janis was writing about what we have been discussing today, back in 2002, and she came to some really interesting conclusions. The originals were printed in Performing Songwriter magazine, and Janis has had copies on her website ever since.

My commented version of The Internet Debacle: An Alternative View.

The copy of Internet Debacle onJanis Ian's website.

My commented version of Fallout: A Follow Up To The Internet Debacle.

The copy of Fallout on Janis Ian's website.

I was rather amused to find her mentioning Mercedes Lackey in the first article. Apparently Janis Ian also writes Science Fiction, something that I hadn't known before reading the articles.
Thanks for the links.

Deleted comment

Most publishers are running on a MUCH NARROWER margin than the music companies. I actually do understand the math of my books, and while I "earn" fifty cents a paperback (the "earn" is in quotes because I have to make my advance back first), I think this is totally reasonable and understandable.

I look at the weird and wonderful things hitting shelves, and have to say that the publishers are doing a pretty good job.
It only takes 4 minutes to listen to a song, 3 to 8 hours to read a book. It the time invested rule. The time it takes to do something initially, the less often you will do it. Please remember to refer to this a Bearhand Rule #1.

Yessir!
On the up side, there are folks like me who download a couple of songs, then buy 4 cd's. (Where is #4, btw?).

Also downloaded the first Toby, read about 1/3, then bought the books. While I could make sweet love to my Ipad, I prefer books. I like how it feels in my hand.

Take that as you will. ;)

And your song about the black death came to mind today when I read: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/07/ebola-in-genomes
So maybe it won't happen again?

OK, I like my IPad. But make love to it? You're almost as weird as Rachel.

seanan_mcguire

6 years ago

I think you're great for standing up for yourself and other authors this way; and that your books are worth every penny I've spent on them, dead-tree and ebook both; and I hope you feel better soon.
Thank you.
Yes, you see all those downloads... but, who are actually downloading it? Readers? Not necessarily, there are people who like to hoard stuff. People where distribution of your book is currently available? Again not necessarily. How many of them would have the monetary means to buy your book had they not downloaded it, and would they have spent it in your book rather than on another book? On this age, are book sales down from 5,10,20 years ago? Now, I don't agree with piracy and all that, but I think the impact of it has been overstated. In the scheme of things, actual potential buyers are minimal... 1 in 10 as you put it is way optimistic. Particularly when you factor that sitting down and deciding to read a book is quite a commitment and time consuming. Not that one should ignore the issue, but it's not something to lose any sleep over. How many potential buyers do you lose from people who lend their books to friend and then they lend it to their brothers and sisters, etc? I think there's more loss there... but at least they bought 1 book right? So while morally correct, I don't think tackling the issue due to financial incentives is going to hold much weight in my opinion.
I am much more interested in the mortality of it, and in the fact that publishers will and do view each download as a "lost sale," which impacts my ability to sell books in the future.
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