Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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Explaining fat shaming to my mother.

The other day, I needed to go to the mall to acquire a new bra. This happens periodically. It's a normal thing. I go to the mall for my bras because that's where the Lane Bryant is, and they make the best bras for my particular body type. What's more, I already know which of their bras will work for me and which won't, which takes a lot of the sting out of shopping. I've worked very hard to get to a place in my life where I could say "I need a new bra" and follow it up with "Let's go to the mall," rather than "Let's repair the old one with some safety pins and maybe a strip of duct tape, and I can buy the new one next month." This doesn't mean that I want to spend an hour digging through the racks, looking for the one that's Just Right. I want to know my options, I want to know what I'm buying, and I want to just do it already.

"Isn't this the store that made that ad?" Mom asked.

"Which ad?"

"The one they wouldn't show on TV."

"Oh. Yeah."

For those of you who managed to miss this whole thing, Fox and ABC refused to air a Lane Bryant commercial, saying that it was inappropriate, despite the fact that both networks air commercials for Victoria's Secret. Now, I've seen both commercials, and if you want to talk comparative nudity, well. The new line from Victoria's Secret is actually called "Naked." The Lane Bryant lingerie, on the other hand, covers a lot more, while committing the dual sins of a) being made for plus-sized women, and b) being reasonably attractive. That's obscene! We can't show that to our children, especially not during Dancing With the Stars, a show that features women wearing costumes that are closer to rumor than reality! That would be wrong! That would be...that would...

Wait, what?

Of course, the networks insist that this isn't a comment about Lane Bryant's lingerie being worn by plus-size models, even though, well, it's either that, or a comment on the immorality of wearing bras that come in colors. Rainbow Brite should be ashamed of herself. Meanwhile, over in Victoria's Secret-land, all the models are modestly wearing undies the exact color of their skins, making them look totally nude if you're not paying close attention. Much more modest.

"Why?"

"Because the models were fat, Mom."

"Really?"

"Yeah."

"But that doesn't make sense."

"Tell me about it."

The current culture of fat shaming isn't just depressing; it's outright scary. It's dehumanizing. Fat women are "whales" and "cows," not just, I don't know, fat women. Women come in all shapes and sizes! Women are healthy at all shapes and sizes! My youngest sister weighs about fifty pounds more than I do, and she is smoking hot, like a plus-sized Betty Page gone tattoo model. She dresses like she's hot, she walks like she's hot, and you know what? She's hot! She's also healthy, active, smart, and all those other things that some people think "fatties" aren't allowed to be. She looks better at her current weight than I ever would, because she's built that way.

This may be a bit of a shock to some of the folks out there deciding what is and isn't "decent," but not all bodies were created from the same template. If Kate and I were to eat identical things and do identical amounts of exercise for a week, we would not lose identical amounts of weight. If Vixy and I were to each gain ten pounds, they would not distribute themselves in identical places on our bodies. I know people who can gain weight on nothing but broccoli and lean meat, and people who can lose weight on a diet of chocolate bonbons. Fat shaming solves nothing. It doesn't make the world's plus-sized population disappear in a puff of Twinkie-scented smoke; it just makes teenage girls develop eating disorders, grown women lie about their weight, and small children tell their mothers they don't want dinner because they're scared of getting fat.

"That's just stupid."

"I know."

"Those people should cut that out."

Also, on the practical side of things...women are more likely to go out in public, and exercise voluntarily, when they're wearing good bras. This goes double for plus-sized women, who are (surprise, surprise) more likely to have large breasts, and thus need the support and stabilization of a good bra. So if the goal is really making all the fat women into thin women, they should be getting government bra service as an incentive to get out and move around more. Not that exercise is the absolute answer for everyone—that's another can of worms, and goes back to my "not all bodies were created from the same template" point—but hell, it would be a start. Saying "ew, that's indecent" doesn't do anybody any good. Except maybe the viewing public that gets spared the sight of all those "fatties," and well. I'm not so concerned about them in this particular situation.

"I wish they would, Mom."

"Tell them that."

"Okay."
Tags: cranky blonde is cranky, don't be dumb, my mom is nuts, so the marilyn
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I didn't think it was possible but you suddenly managed to implant the image in my mind of an adult and classically curvy Rainbow Brite wearing an oversize cone-shaped bra. It's almost as bad as this. NSFW most likely.

As for the whole plus-size thing I can heartily agree that it is mortally stupid. It's only in later "civillized" society that we view larger women as unacceptable. (Please note though I do believe there is a point at which it becomes unhealthy to be large. This is from a 240 lb 5' 7" male. Huh. That's the third post I've mentioned my dimension in. WTF is up with that.)

I for one prefer a classically curved woman and not a stick.
Oh, I agree; much as "too thin" can be a health hazard, we need to admit that "too large" can be a health hazard. That said, it's a bell curve, not a huge line of unhealthy followed by a tiiiiiiny plateau of "well, we suppose you can leave the house."

I love that comic.

nimitzbrood

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

I heart your mom.
So do I. :)
FYI, Huffington Post has a scan of ABC's "restrictions" on the ad. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/21/lane-bryant-accuses-fox-a_n_546131.html

Jay Leno showed both the LB ad and a Victoria's Secret "Nakeds" ad back to back if you want to see the difference - http://www.hulu.com/watch/146086/the-tonight-show-with-jay-leno-ashley-graham-part-1
Ah, thanks for the link, it's helpful for those of us who haven't seen the ad. Seems to me the Lane Bryant ad is so much more appealing, sweeter somehow, and the VS ad is much more... um, angry? disturbed? something...

living400lbs

7 years ago

vixyish

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Ahhh, your mother and her logic. I heart it so.

Her ideas on the amount of power Seanan has to tell the entirely advertising industry to pull their heads out of dark places is amusing though.
If only it were accurate!
I liked both ads, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
Nor should you be.
Amen sister!
Solidarity!
Great post Seanan. Society in general and the media in particular are very messed up when it comes to the issues of bodies, weight, and food.
Thank you.
I know people say this regularly, but your mom is so totally fucking awesome.
She really kinda is. :)
I'm just praying that someday, those of us who are larger-sized but *don't* have glorious curvy breasts are taken into consideration when it comes to lingerie and clothing, as well. V-necks reach halfway to my belly button. 42-A is not a size bras come in. Yet, since I'm fat, I am doing something "wrong" by not having the D and DD that my mother and sister have.

Crewnecks get me called a prude. Boatnecks, scoopnecks and squarenecks all highlight the straps of the sports bras I have to wear because nothing else will fit. And worst of all, the tummy bulge is 100% visible for everyone because I have no breasts to hold my shirt out. It's easy to look gorgeous when you have curves. When they're the ones on your stomach, it's a bit more difficult.
I have a good friend whose build is very much like the way you describe yours, and I've seen her fighting with clothing. Bleah. Our current fashion culture sucks.

metalkatt

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

metalkatt

7 years ago

lysystratae

7 years ago

freyaw

5 years ago

Thanks for posting about this and your mom's reaction as well.

My mother died last year at the age of 57 of leukemia. I tell you that so you understand she did NOT die of a fat-related condition, but that she did die relatively young. Anyway. She spent her entire adult life on one diet or another, desperately trying to lose weight (she was quite large, but frankly, no worse than most women I see around me), and my dad and his mother (who is teeny tiny) spent 40 years taking shots at her in some form or other for her weight. Why she put up with it, I haven't the foggiest idea - but it did teach me not to obsess about my weight (I'm also fat - and yeah, I'm not ashamed of that word. FAT. FAT) or be miserable in the pursuit of a better body. I exercise when I can, within reasonable limits. I try to eat good things rather than nothing at all, and yeah, I eat fattening things from time to time. Dad stopped taking shots at my weight a long time ago because he realized it didn't matter to me; I wish Mom had either left him or found a way for it not to matter to her.

This post made me think of her. I don't want children, but if I had them, I'd teach my daughters not to worry about it, and slap the shit out of my sons if they EVER said otherwise or treated the women in their lives that way in front of me - just like Dad's mom should've done to him. Thanks for posting, again. :-)
Very welcome.

Deleted comment

Very welcome.
Brava- thanks for the "rant." I love it when medical professionals are complicit in the fat shaming. I'm a little under 5 feet tall and my target weight according to standardized measures is about 95 pounds. At a size 8-10 I'm a good 40-50 pounds over that. One of my doctors once sat me down to have a "health" talk due to my "obesity."

When I informed her that, despite her opinion to the contrary, I ate whole wheats, lean meats such as fish, veggies, little to no processed sugar, and did aerobic exercise and weight training 4-5 times a week her brain exploded. I like my doctor now much better. When I shared that story he leaned over, pinched my side, and told me if I ever lost more than 10 pounds he'd start force feeding me himself. LOL
Oh, your new doctor rules.

Deleted comment

Rock on for posting this.

When I'm not writing, politicizing, or plotting world domination... I teach high school. I also coach a high school track team. It's a hellaciously body conscious sport, so I'm forever trying to promote good body image. And I cannot stand the coaches, parents, athletic clothing companies, anyone else who promote the notion that trackies have to be rail thin and flat as boards... ESPECIALLY at the high school level. Part of being a teenage girl is celebrating when you finally get your curves! When you can stop stuffing kleenex in your bra! When your hip-hugger jeans actually have hips to hug!

And, man, I ran track in college, weighed about thirty pounds more than any other relay starter I ever raced, and have a top ten finish at divisionals on my record (so there). And I, like you other curvy women on this thread, am hot. ;-)
Curvy doesn't mean not-athletically-talented. I mean, maybe it's a killer for an Olympic gymnastics career, but aside from that? Nuh-uh.

I'm glad your kids have you.

dimloep_suum

7 years ago

asphaltangel

7 years ago

I could actually see how they wouldn't want afternoon nooky in a commercial because some dumbass parent would complain that their kid saw it while watching private practice at 10 pm or some other non-kid's show after bedtime. Because it seems a lot of parents are that way these days. *ducks from the rotten tomatoes I'll probably get here*

But I would take that, hands down, over a VS ad with one woman practically having sex with a curtain or something and another basically posing for Playboy and another practicing for a wet t-shirt underwear contest. I like my TV sex with characters and stories and scripts and things I can follow rather than 30 seconds of no context. (Which is also why I like the first one; there's a *point* to the underwear rather than for shock value.)

And if there is ever a bill before Congress for a federal income supplement or tax break for bras (fitting, purchase, whatever), I would be that one-woman-sit-in you'd see on the news.
Oh, trust me, you would not be alone in that sit-in.

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

I, too, detest this fat-shaming culture. It's one of many things I hate about this culture. I could write a book about everything about the culture I was born to that disgusts me.
Preach on.

fayanora

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Deleted comment

There are also some standalone Cacique stores - mostly next to Lane Bryants. The Cacique stores tend to have a more styles of bras and also carry more sizes.

idancewithlife

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Another thing my friend discovered was the website OneStopPlus.com using skinny models for their plus sized clothing, and not in the model is on the low end of plus size either. She noticed something off with the proportions of the models, particularly with their collar bones and shoulders, so she put some of the shots in ms paint and altered the width and viola they models looked right. She did this on multiple shots and yup, the site takes pictures of skinny women and then just widens the picture for the plus size sizes. Not only is this deceitful in the fact that it's altering what the clothing will actually look like but is there really a need to not hire a model who actually would fit in the clothes they are selling?

Another good thing to check out is A Fat Rant on youtube. Says some things that need to be said.

I just wish companies/people would understand that advertising to larger women does not create larger women anymore than teaching safe sex encourages teens to have sex. It's creating informed people so they can make the best decision for themselves and live their lives well.
LB has been using size 16s and 18s, which are in their size range (14-28). So does Junonia.

Generally I've found the catalogs most likely to use genuine fat people as models are small companies that cater to the above-3x range.

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Well said. It's even a problem in high school. Read this wonderful post by my 15½ yo daughter.
Wow.

That is very well said.
Seanan, thanks for bringing fat acceptance to more people; anyone who wants even more fat goodness, come here: http://fattiesunited.wordpress.com
Welcome.
Quite well said. When I saw the ad in question my reaction was that the model looked a lot more like most of the women I know than the usual models. Also that she's hot. ;) I certainly don't see any reason that the ad shouldn't have been shown. Sadly, my wife is just a size too small to fit their line of lingerie, I think it looks better than many of the other places.
For that matter, Lane Bryant seems to manage better photography than Victoria's Secret overall in their ads. Possibly because their models aren't having to starve themselves to keep their careers. My wife & I tend to have fun critiquing the photography of the ads - it's a hazard of being photographers. :)
We analyze what we know! I copy-edit ads. It makes my brain sad, but I can't stop doing it.
As it turns out, Lane Bryant bras do NOT fit MY body. At all!!!!
But that commercial was tastefully hawt!!!
And I'm really sick of being told I'm not attractive because I'm fat. Thank gods for firestrike and men like him!
Damn straight.
<3
:)
The fact that they wouldn't air that commercial infuriates me. You're right, it's the same level of decency that is displayed in most lingerie commercials, and is better than some.

I have struggled with negative body issues for so long (I'm 22, I've been a recovered anorexic since I was 8, if that gives any perspective). I also have a diseased thyroid that has slingshot my weight from lower-plus to dangerously skinny and back again. I also have a buttload of other crap that has happened to me to affect how I perceive myself. I have clawed my way, tooth and nail, out of that pit of self-loathing, and I'll be damned if I get dragged back in again. This fat-phobic culture has got to end.


Thank you for the inspiration to keep fighting that negativity, both internal and external. *hug*

Very welcome, sweetie.

weight

a3starmom

7 years ago

Re: weight

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Yep. Definitely love your mother.

And yes, bra shopping is Evil, and for me, Cacique makes it a hell of a lot easier to deal with :-P. Fortunately there's a Cacique/Lane Bryant double storefront in the strip mall closest to my house, which means not having to enter the enclosed mall just to get bras.
Oh, nice!
Very well said.

It seems the fashion and cosmetics industries wouldn't manage to stay alive if they weren't constantly making the 90% of women with real bodies feel insecure ... all ads with the subtext "Hey, you're just not very pretty as you are, but if you buy this dress or this lipstick, people just might not shun you when you go out in public. So buy TWO."
I think you're sadly correct.
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