Seanan McGuire (seanan_mcguire) wrote,
Seanan McGuire
seanan_mcguire

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On character death.

So jimhines made a well-considered post on character death, which, naturally, got me thinking about the topic. Because I am a thoughtful blonde, this thinking took about fifteen forms, and eventually resulted in something far too long to be a comment. I think too much.

First off, I want to say that I don't have a problem with the concept of character death. Sometimes, people die. Sometimes, yes, even in fiction. And as an author, I don't think I'm allowed to have a problem with character death. There's a point in Stephen King's Misery where Annie Wilkes, the crazy nurse, is accusing Paul Sheldon of being a murderer because his main character, Misery, has died in childbirth. He protests, saying very firmly that he didn't kill her. She just died.

Sometimes characters just die.

I've had that happen to me twice now: characters I really expected were going to make it through their stories have turned around and said "no, I'm sorry, this is where I get off the train." Once that point was reached, I couldn't go back. I walked away from a book for six months once, and I still couldn't take it back. I'm not saying that fictional people have free will, but I am saying that a well-made character will do things the author doesn't expect, and that a story acquires a narrative weight that can sometimes make certain things inevitable. Sometimes the only way an author can have control is to be untrue to the story, and readers can tell when that happens. A good story is alive. Saving a character who's supposed to die can kill it. I may love zombies, but that doesn't mean I want to turn my books into zombies, y'know?

Similarly, if not the same, sometimes you just need to kill people. It's entirely unrealistic to, say, write a zombie techno-thriller in which absolutely everybody lives. So sometimes, I have characters who are just, in the immortal words of Spider Jerusalem, here to go. Not all of them actually leave! Sometimes people I created as "fire and forget" wind up sticking around, refusing to die, while characters I expected to be working with for years politely take their leave six chapters in. I try to be true to the story. I try not to fight it.

At the same time, very little pisses me off more than a bad character death. One of my favorite television shows recently killed off one of my favorite characters in a manner that was unnecessary and just plain mean. It felt like they were going "how can we make it clear that things are getting really, really serious? Hey! Let's bring back this minor character that everyone thinks we've forgotten about, and just kill the crap out of 'em! That'll make everybody sit up and take notice!" Shock and awe deaths don't do anything but upset me. I've stopped watching shows entirely for pulling that sort of stunt—after the episode of Torchwood where I spent an hour crying and saying "I am not okay with this" over and over, I took the show off my watch-list. I dropped Sanctuary over a death that felt less plot-serving and more "the focus group says..."-serving. And yes, there are books that I've thrown aside in disgust, because it all just got to be too damn mean and purposeless to take.

This is not me saying "if you kill a character I like, you, too, are dead to me." For example, one of my favorite movies is The Fly. Yes, with Jeff Goldblum. For those of you who don't know it, it's a horror movie, and things don't go well for most of the main characters. I've been known to watch it when I'm not feeling well, in the hopes that I'll fall asleep and it'll get a different ending in my dreams, Just This Once. At the same time, the ending is so right, and so justified by what came before it, that I don't mind. And that's sort of the thing. When a character's death is right and true and meant to happen, it shows, and those deaths, even when they upset me, are the way things ought to be.

Jim also makes the point—and it's a good one—that killing is contextual. If I kill someone in a Toby book, that's expected. If I kill someone in one of Mira Grant's books, that's practically a legal requirement. But if I kill someone in a Corey book, people are going to be going "Um, w-t-f, over?" and threatening me with sticks. Genre determines a lot of what you can get away with, and what I'm willing to accept as a reader or viewer. I don't like to be blindsided; I don't think anybody does. (This isn't me saying "no deaths in YA," by the way. People will die in the Clady books. Just that the genre really does determine what is and is not okay.)

I will always kill characters. I can't help it. Sometimes the story needs people I care about to die, and sometimes individual stories are just done. I will also always get upset over senseless character deaths, because there's a big, big difference between "this needed to happen" and "I'm the author, that's why."

Thoughts?
Tags: contemplation, writing
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I had to have a character die in my second book out of necessity. Old age was one reason. Furthering the plot / pushing the main character's growth was another. Etc. When the thought first came to me, I cried a river. As I wrote the draft, I cried a river. Every time I read that scene, I cry a river. I felt like and still feel like I'd killed my best friend.

I completely understand. I've had at least one character death where every time I have to revisit the scene, I just sit and sob. I didn't want to do it. I didn't have a choice.

mariadkins

7 years ago

So far, I've been unable to kill anyone who is a person "on camera." I've got a mourning widower, I've got a character who's watching the original she is a clone of succumbing to Alzeheimer's, but I haven't yet killed off anyone where I had to watch.

Wait, I take it back. I've got one murder-by-dream. Still no direct contact, and constructed so that it could be just a dream.

I may need to think on this.
If it needs to happen, you'll know, either because the story tells you or because your early readers do.
As a reader, the only time I remember character death making me give up on a book was when an author seemed to be setting up a viewpoint character in chapter one, investing them with a lot of detail and back-story, then killing them off abruptly as the chapter ended. (I suppose that would be OK in a murder mystery, but this wasn't.) Right or wrong, my reaction was that the writer had picked an extremely poor place to start telling the tale.

I don't remember which story or author at the moment.
I don't mind killing the POV character. I just mind it when it's not necessary.
RTD, of Doctor Who and Torchwood (in)fame(y), is really bad about character deaths. Not only does he do it for "shock and awe" value, but then he brings them back! Oh, all the X are dead. Wait, except this one. Oh, and the complete empire. But they'll all be killed again. But they might come back if I run out of other ideas. And he does it not just once, but with several characters and races...

JMS, in Babylon 5, however, did it right. Characters died, some of them ones we really cared about, and they stayed dead. And they didn't die for no reason except the plot (or the actor left the series), it was planned and meaningful to the series.

I remember reading an 'occult' novel many years (er, decades) ago (I unremember the author, possibly Charles Williams or someone of that era) in which the major character died at the end. It was sad (she was a "good guy") but it was right, it had to happen as a sacrifice to counter the evil. In fact that's about all I remember of the book, that's how 'right' it was.

Yes, sometimes in some genres main characters have to die. In "On The Beach" everyone dies (ooh, it's an Erica song!). In others, they don't. In some cases, they can't (either the story or the genre prevents it). There's a place for all of the variations...
That reminds me of "Lammas Night" by Kathleen Kurtz (the good guy had to die as a sacrifice) but the character was male, not female.

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

sheistheweather

7 years ago

keristor

7 years ago

sheistheweather

7 years ago

keristor

7 years ago

tikiera

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

tikiera

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Kinda want to know which Torchwood death put you off the show. I had to force myself through it after a certain point.
End of season two. I was just done.

all_ephemera

7 years ago

Deleted comment

ladyfox7oaks

7 years ago

Deleted comment

keristor

7 years ago

kyburg

7 years ago

ladyfox7oaks

7 years ago

Oh man. I adore B5. I think it's time for another movie and series marathon ...
In "On The Beach" everyone dies

I read this (Neville Shute) back in high school. I got to the end during one of my classes and was sitting there crying my eyes out. Teacher sent me to the nurse's station to get me out of her hair and so I'd stop bothering the rest of the class. lol :sigh:
If you ever wanted to talk about which characters of yours decided to buy the farm unexpectedly, and which evaded what fate had planned for them... I would be absolutely fascinated.

If you don't want to, I'll probably go "awww" but I'm hopefully not so absent-minded as to keep pestering you 'bout it, of course. O:>
Ask me in person sometime. I'm not really going to blog about it, because I try to be as spoiler-avoident as humanly possible.

mariadkins

7 years ago

archangelbeth

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

archangelbeth

7 years ago

Interesting. I don't think there's anything wrong with killing off the non-red shirts. If nothing else, it keeps the other characters on their toes :)

PS: Maybe the Sanctuary character who got killed off asked for a raise :)
Heh. That, I'd be a lot more sanguine about.

Even though I was aching in side the first time I killed off a character that I knew my readers were going to love, I also was crowing with diabolical delight, because it gave me the plot twist I needed, and yes, I did like knowing I was going to make my readers hurt. That sounds cruel, but I kind of figured that in the romance genre, when the reader always knows that the happy ending is coming up, having to suffer on the way is just and sound, from time to time.

At the same time, very little pisses me off more than a bad character death.

Severus Snape. 'Nuff said.
Hey, sometimes you need to be cruel to make the kindness sweeter. It's like putting salt in your cookies to improve the flavor.
I just friended your journal - I am thrilled to have found it. HUGE fan of Rosemary and Rue here. :-) I am really going to enjoy reading about your journey, thanks :-)

PS My new book should be out around the same time as yours :-D :-)
Hello, and welcome! I'm really glad you found the place. :) (I have it linked from my website 'cause hey, what's the point of having a blog if it's not shared?)

What's your book about?

elfinecstasy

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Deleted comment

I completely understand.
Yep. The screenplay I just finished on Monday included one character who died unexpectedly and one one who was meant to die but lived. It also featured a third-act reveal/ twist that took the treatment I'd written and pitched it in the nearest trash can. (This is why I hate outlining stories - they rarely go the direction I expect!)

Personally, I thought Torchwood handled its "main character" deaths well. YMMV

Sorry we missed you on your last trip here. I was sick and in no shape to share the love. Hopefully, we'll see you later this month!

*hugs*
Thanks for sparing me your germs!

I have...issues...with what happened in Torchwood. If you're going to kill every character I care about, you'd damn well better make me re-invest in your show somehow, and RTD didn't.

Miss you!
Saving a character who's supposed to die can kill it. I may love zombies, but that doesn't mean I want to turn my books into zombies, y'know?

In a fanfic story I wrote, I killed a major character due to plot necessity. When I decided to write a sequel, I brought her back as a zombie. It worked surprisingly well.
Zombies make everything better :-)

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

I'd love to hear more about how you, as a writer, go about telling that "yes, this character needs to die and I cannot/should not save them."
So noted. That would probably make a good post. Hmm.

Deleted comment

I haven't seen it. I know who dies, and as long as I don't watch the movie, it doesn't happen.
I am glad to read this. I killed off a major character and it hit me really hard that I couldn't bring him back. I tried writing him as a ghost, and it didn't work at all for the story so I let it go. It made a fantastic plot point and wound up motivating the protagonists in a fantastic way.
Death is a part of everything.
An author I can't stand, Laurell K. Hamilton, piles characters into her books, rarely ever kills anyone off, and makes a mess of things.
I love reading books in which the author is able to kill characters that you care about.
Sometimes you just don't have a choice. Sometimes it really is exactly what the story demands.
This is really true. I wrote a continuance fanfic for an anime several years ago, where everything was all hijinks and awesome... until around a quarter of the way through the fic, the body count started.

First it was unnammed agents

Then it was a background character that was mentioned several times (and vivid enough that people liked her without an onscreen appearance) and appeared just long enough to die.

Then I got to a very important supporting character, and yes, he had to die. It wasn't even a prolonged glorious death, either; it was literally a villain's "tidying up loose ends" death. Man, I got screamed at for that one. But it had to be done. No way was that character living after what he did to futz up the villain's plans.

In the novel I'm working on right now, siblings of the main characters may die. For the story to evolve required, and I'm going to hate it, but sometimes the darlings have to die. With this specific case, I'm not sure who's going to kick it, but someone is.

So yeah. I'm entirely with you. Sometimes, character deaths can make the story itself more real.
Whoops. It's always a little weird when the dying starts, but I completely agree with you on the matter of why it has to happen.

Deleted comment

tsgeisel

January 7 2010, 22:14:53 UTC 7 years ago Edited:  January 7 2010, 22:16:03 UTC

I was about to say how it felt like this post could also have been written *by* grrm, an author who has felt it necessary to kill characters from time to time. In fact, I find myself wondering who's safe.

The pointless death for me in that series came in "A Feast For Crows".

(Apologies for multiple edits, those of you who get them mailed to you...)

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Sometimes the story needs people I care about to die, and sometimes individual stories are just done. I will also always get upset over senseless character deaths, because there's a big, big difference between "this needed to happen" and "I'm the author, that's why.

This is pretty much exactly where I stand, both when I write and concerning what I read (and watch, though I watch things less).
Most excellent. Unity can be fun!
I get really unhappy when it seems like the authors are putting someone to death specifically in order to shake the audience out of our complacency. Ok, I admit, if the subject of the book or show or film is politically charged, something about activism, or the whole point is, one way or another, to reveal to us something we've been complacent about? Right, ok.

But if it's my escapeism, damnit, shaking me out of my complacency is not necessarily justified. There's nothing wrong with being a bit complacent about my fantasies. Sometimes it seems like there are authors who think it's wrong to read or watch shows or movies for relaxation purposes. I get irritable when I feel like the reason a character died is because the authors are being edgy and philosophical, rather than because it's called for in the context of the story.

--Ember--
Sometimes the only place you can be complacent is in your fantasies, and I support that right.
I am amused at this topic coming up today, as my student who's a big fan of yours just finished reading the ALH ARC and came into the library crying over your cruelty to beloved characters. Then again, the first thing she said after "IT'S NOT FAIR!" was "I'm getting this the day it comes out." Then she told her six friends they needed to do the same. Clearly, you're doing something right there.

Character death always has a certain sweet-spot you have to hit as a writer, though, I think. It's easy to tip over into 'killing without meaning' or worse, 'cheap manipulation'. The latter is one of my biggest turnoffs in fiction, I think.
That is awesome. That is so, so awesome.

I work hard to avoid going over that line. Sometimes I worry. Then my beta readers slap me in the head and tell me to get the hell back to work already.
ME? I'm no writer. I attempted it a few times cause I thought the stories in my head needed telling and what came out was mostly SLOP. You can find better on the fan-fiction warehouse website. I'm just a reader. Your average, run-of-the-mill, fantasy and sci-fi reader.

But I HATE it when an author decides they must kill somebody off because it's what all the cool kids are doing and it'll sell books, or "just because they CAN," or because it's the latest in a long string of pain and angst and EMO that they are forcing their character through for whatever murky reason. (They may call it "Character development" but if the character doesn't obviously CHANGE afterwards, WHERE'S the "development"?!)

The writers that throw everything AND the kitchen sink at their heroes? The hacks who make the heroes life seem like an un-ending, depressing, fight for every minute? The key-pounding authors that make sure their "Heroes" NEVER get any glimmer of happiness, laughter, or cheer or any of the OTHER emotions that makes a human being- human? (Or at least likeable, in the case of the non-human types...)

Yeah- THOSE writers don't last long on my reading list. I got a copy of the "Thomas Covenant" series, (White Gold Wielder (?) and a couple of others...) I got about three chapters in and tossed the book across the room- because the author had made the protagonist so seriously emo, angry, angsty, and generally an @$$hole that I couldn't STAND him and was already rooting for the bad guy!

ON the other hand, While I hated it,and I cried, and am still not entirely sure it *HAD* to happen, I can *Almost* see the reasoning behind why Dumbledore had to go. ...
ALMOST.

OK- I'll shut up now...
Avoid senseless angst: check! I will do my best not to anger you. :)

ladyfox7oaks

7 years ago

ash_of_roses

7 years ago

Characters die when they have to. In my very first novel I killed my main character's side kick/love interest/soul brother because of plot necessities and main character's further development. My friend is writing on part two of the story and really could not need that character.
He died in battle, saving his soul brother's life. Aaaaw. Drama. Necessary drama. My betas loved the scene but wanted to strangle me. I take that as a compliment.
I must admit that re-reading the scene during editing time, it brought tears to my eyes and made me think Bad Aryana was a Bad, Bad Writer.
Bad, and yet so, so good.

If you can make yourself cry, you're doing it right.

aryana_filker

7 years ago

seanan_mcguire

7 years ago

Amen to the Torchwood sentiments. I dislike characters being killed for the sake of killing, in the name of surprise. Some characters are important to kill, and some are not.

This is something always in the back of my mind. I realized one day with one of my stories that, since the ending would involve a series of battles, it was unlikely for my gang to survive, if I wanted to be realistic. Suddenly the main character's best freind tapped me on the shoulder and said it would be him. I don't want to do it, because I really like him, but somehow it sounded natural for him to die. However, I don't really know what the tone of it will end up being (especially since I sorta view it as a project to find my style and to practice and figure out writer-ly things), and whether that tone will fit such an ending. My plan is to actually deal with it when I get there.
Kill because they need to die, not because you need to kill someone.

Good luck navigating your death scene.
I can't take offing of the main viewpoint character early in the story. It seems like such a deliberate author trick - making us think the story is about someone, letting us get attached, then suddenly switching to someone else - that I can never accept it as a natural part of the story.

I can usually take other character deaths, but if there are too many or my favorites are all killed off, I might lose interest.
Understandable, on all points.
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